ironside1966 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 You have hit the nail on the head, cheap inexperienced engineers. I am sceptical that telling them what to do will get any better results. If you want a particular bass sound and you work with inexperienced engineers use a Pod or Swansamp, to give them a feed they can’t mess up. If the engineer is that bad you could also bring your own desk and link it in to their system. I have been to venues with a couple of bands to do the sound for them but ended up sitting in the audience listening to a crap sound because the venue manager said “ I am not paying my engineer to sit on is xxx doing nothing. I have also baby-sat engineers and I have had to kick a couple off the desk before the do damage to the PA. I remember one guy who spent most of the time telling me how he was the best and most requested engineer for miles around I had to kick him off not only was the bands sounding terrible and the manager and audience compiling, the PA started to walk towards me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I think anyone who's played more than a little will have experienced good and bad engineers, and if they've got a good musical ear will also have a fair idea of roughly where any deficiency in the sound lies, though knowing how to fix it is another matter. A pro engineer will undoubtedly make best use of the available equipment and have a workable approach so I don't see the point in pistols at dawn here - no-one's career was ruined by an internet forum. Plus, most bands in toilet venues aren't really paid much either and a fair chunk of the industry at that level is essentially amateur/semi pro. There are also plenty of engineers at the lower end of the market who're essentially mini one- or two-man production companies, and as a student playing in and booking bands, and organising gigs, I learnt the hard way that a lot of these guys really aren't very interested in the musical/engineering side of things...I won't name names but there are some companies who relied on the fact that student organising committee member turnover is faster than their reputations can spread. Thinking more about Monckeyman and Simon's differing ideas about the kick drum/bass mic - my ears tend to agree with Simon BUT there is an argument that (say) a D112 on both cab and kick, which has a pronounced EQ curve, has two beneficial effects. First, it'll help the sounds blend ie deliberately NOT giving each instrument it's own sonic space, and you get that nice rock effect where the kick becomes part of the attack phase of the bass note. Second, it makes the sound of both predictable which sorts out a lot of badly-tuned/badly voiced/badly played drums and basses. What you lose there and I'd think is important is flexibility. Setting up in a hurry for rock-type music and functions bands it's probably a great one-size-fits-all approach (and as a lowly student doing sound whilst playing in bands D112 on kick made life a lot easier in that respect, same as a 58 on male vox - always sounds the same!). But when I used to do sound for other bands who were playing jazz or more world-type music where you do want that separation, I'd fight against that inherent mic coloration. I wish I'd thought to use a 57 or even a padded C1000. I sitll think based on my experiences as a punter and a player that there are a fair number of working engineers, even doing festivals etc, where they don't listen to enough examples of the genres they end up mixing to be sympathetic to how it's 'supposed' to sound. Overall it's probably a useful reminder that standard practices evolve for a reason and it's good to know what that reason is, to avoid falling foul of it! It's pretty clear that everyone here knows what they're doing and it's more about preferred methodology to get to a similar end-point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Fantastic post above, really not a fan of the C1000 on anything though. I just don't like the sound of it at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1320679481' post='1429835'] Fantastic post above, really not a fan of the C1000 on anything though [/quote] Hah well maybe relegating it to kick isn't such a bad thing! I have to say though, those budget electrets became more and more my 'go to' option in situations where a 57/58 or the Sennheiser dynamics weren't doing it, particularly through cheap PAs (funny how 58s in particular can sound so nasty through a cheap PA but really very good into more expensive systems). I'm sure if I'd had some 414s, SM81s or whatever else kit you get at the higher end of the live market the C1000s and similar mics would have been quickly supplanted - they were far from perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 The Rodes do a better job IME than the C1000s. AKG are a great brand but that particular mic just sounds so harsh to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 zzz.... oh sorry, did somebody say something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1320693639' post='1430184']zzz.... oh sorry, did somebody say something?[/quote] http://www.hearingprotection.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1320686262' post='1430012'] The Rodes do a better job IME than the C1000s. AKG are a great brand but that particular mic just sounds so harsh to me [/quote] I had/have an NT3 which I used to try as well, and it worked well for some stuff but I found the bottom end was a little uncontrollable compared to the C1000s. Neither mic sounded so harsh up top to me as a typical dynamic, though I did used to roll them off but it seemed to retain detail better...but all this is a bit OT. I only mentioned the C1000s because they're the only gen purpose electret/condenser that I'd encounter with any regularity in house kit (usually in those AKG drum mic sets) and I found they did a job when the typical dynamics didn't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Just come home from rhcp at the Manchester men arena, flea had no cabs mic'd up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1321404376' post='1438861'] Just come home from rhcp at the Manchester men arena, flea had no cabs mic'd up [/quote] [url="http://www.elevation-music.com/redhotchpeba.html"]Well thats certainly changed[/url], he used to use a DI before his effects, one after his effects and a mic on one of the 10" cones.... He used to use[url="http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=shure%20sm98&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shure.com%2Fidc%2Fgroups%2Fpublic%2Fdocuments%2Fwebcontent%2Fus_pro_sm98_ug.pdf&ei=NRDDTp6EPIuT8gPaveCGCw&usg=AFQjCNGaFeiPpWmLVZDxF5INu6orDcM-Uw&cad=rja"] Shure SM98 mics [/url]on the cones, which are ickly tiny capsules, so its certainly possible that you could miss one. Edited November 16, 2011 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1321406157' post='1438866'] [url="http://www.elevation-music.com/redhotchpeba.html"]Well thats certainly changed[/url], he used to use a DI before his effects, one after his effects and a mic on one of the 10" cones.... He used to use[url="http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=shure%20sm98&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shure.com%2Fidc%2Fgroups%2Fpublic%2Fdocuments%2Fwebcontent%2Fus_pro_sm98_ug.pdf&ei=NRDDTp6EPIuT8gPaveCGCw&usg=AFQjCNGaFeiPpWmLVZDxF5INu6orDcM-Uw&cad=rja"] Shure SM98 mics [/url]on the cones, which are ickly tiny capsules, so its certainly possible that you could miss one. [/quote] Flea sized mics for Flea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Yeah kind of, but check out the frequency plot on them, a gentle rise between 40 and 1000Hz of about 3dB, then a further rise upto 10000Hz of about 4dB, no huge mid scoop eq built into those babies I'd love some f those for micing toms.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I saw that, it's quite impressive that a mic that size can take the thump tbh. That's actually pretty much how I tend to EQ my bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Just looked at the links above and there was nothing of the sort, I could see all 6 cabs quite clearly. 100% not one to each cab as his tech says, I could even see the 4x10 over on Josh's side of the stage and that was clear too. There was a lead hanging over one of the cabs which I thought from the first link may of had one of those hanging in front but looking at the images and the way it says it does not pickup sound from behind it cant of been, anyway Im fairly certain from seeing them before that its an instrument input cable presumeably in case of his wireless packing up. Even if it was one of those mics its never going to pick up the 15" below and how come everyone argues about mixing cabs or that swapping one cab for another type (even just magnet type from the same company) yet having just one of the 4x10s out of 3 1x15s and 3 4x10s is going to sound like his rig sound? TBF even as a Flea fan his sound usually sucks anyway IMO, His overdriven sound is awful live. Part of me cant help but feel he would sound better on a proper EBMM as others have said, might be just a little less harsh than the Modulus? Edited November 16, 2011 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The point of mixing a mic and a DI live is not to capture the entire sound of the cab, but to use the interesting things that happen to the sound having been filtereds by the power amp and a nice sounding flappy transducer (the speaker) in the sound that you pump out of FOH. As soon as you are close micing you cant get much more thats useful than that, but it is nevertheless useful. The ear does its best work in the mid range, the speaker close mic'ed (very close and you get proximity effect with a dynamic that will enhance low end) will give you masses of info in the mid range that is different from the DI sound there, and presumably preferential (or else why do it) for the bass sound in question. He may well have changed his rig/tech guy/sound guy/requirements, but he's the star he gets what he wants. There are many ways to skin a cat after all. For all we know theres another cab off stage dedicated to being mic'ed up (it happens), or he doesnt use a mic any more but a software emulator of an amp cab. Or he doesnt use a mic'ed cab sound as a part of his FOH at all now. Any of which are possible.... Interesting stuff though, well spotted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1321440569' post='1439052'] He may well have changed his rig/tech guy/sound guy/requirements, but he's the star he gets what he wants. There are many ways to skin a cat after all. For all we know theres another cab off stage dedicated to being mic'ed up (it happens) [/quote] I was thinking this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1321442393' post='1439083'] I was thinking this. [/quote] I doubt it was another cab, why would you when there are 7 to mic on the stage? He had no amp heads visible anymore either. The emulator sounds more likely to me good call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Its perfectly possible that the 7 on stage are not actually doing anything other than looking great to secure a nice endorsement deal of course, what with the inner ear monitoring that is quite probably being used. If they mic the drums then not running any stage volume makes that aspect somewhat easier.... Which leadss to the question of why mic one on stage where there may be an issue. Until someone running the show pipes up and tells us its all supposition, which is all perfectly good fun though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1321444084' post='1439120'] I doubt it was another cab, why would you when there are 7 to mic on the stage? He had no amp heads visible anymore either. The emulator sounds more likely to me good call. [/quote] They could have put the cab in an isolated room to reduce the risk of any feedback and for the opportunity to use mic techniques which wouldn't be plausible on stage, like a mic 6 foot from the cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I think its much more likely that he is happy with FOH being fed off his DI and pedal setup then back to his cabs as monitors. Im not sure what the story with the endorsement is as he swapped to Acoustic Audio a few months ago yet everyone has noticed he has used the GK for this tour. Same as the Basses really, He didnt use a Jazz once last night although the magazine reviews stated exactly which ones he was using for the tour. All done on 2 Modulus basses who he fell out with before and probably will again, I cant keep up! Whatever they did I could hear him anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Here you go not the best picture in the world but you can see his rig and the GK 4x10 on the far side of the stage (lucky us getting the flea side ) there is a mic to Fleas right thats miles away though really, I think it was for the sax player if I remember. [attachment=93242:Flea.jpg] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Someone should point him towards the thread all about mixing his cab sizes too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 DI through a pad straight from the speaker leads is another possibility...('spect he used one of them Behringer units with the built-in cab emulator innit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Or he could have been miming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Ha I was wrong all along there is a mic on the very top left 10" speaker I can see it on one of the Youtube clips!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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