power leads for amp

[mart]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1321062409' post='1435143']
yeah but the other guy (Florin) was a "[i]Profanity removed"[/i] - he deserved it
[/quote]
No. Sorry, but I can't let that stand. I've been on the Warwick forum a lot over the last few years, and I've seen a lot of sides to Florin, and as well as being an incredibly successful musician (bassist in the biggest band in the country!), he is also gentle and kind, and is absolutely the last person to deserve being called a "[i]Profanity removed"[/i].

He doesn't come across terribly well on that thread, but then, look at that thread from his point of view. He approached these cables with an open mind, and did a careful A/B test, and heard a difference. His argument, then, is that somebody who hasn't actually used the cable has no right to tell him what he can or cannot hear. After all, he's a pro musician, he has good ears! If you approach this thing with a sufficiently open mind, then his point is perfectly correct, and it's a shame that he had to defend himself so much.

But. Those of us who look at this with some knowledge of the science cannot approach this with a truly open mind, because we know a lot of relevant things! We know that the cable [i]cannot[/i] make any audible difference, so it's all a matter of perception. Florin thinks he's countered that by doing the A/B test, and if you don't know enough about the placebo effect, then his test looks rigorous enough. But it's not, because the placebo effect is astoundingly hard to avoid, hence the need for double-blind tests. "Double-blind" is a phrase that gets bandied around too freely, and I suspect too many people use it without realizing exactly what it entails. When they do read what it involves, most people think it's totally unnecessary - surely it's enough if the patient doesn't know whether they're getting the real thing or a dummy. You need to have read a lot of the wierd things the placebo effect can do before you start seeing the need for such a complicated experiment.

I wish the scientists on that thread could have gently explained the need for a full double-blind test, and given some examples of how much we can trick ourselves, particularly with aural perception. But no, the scientists were too busy arguing to actually take the time to see where Flo was coming from. And I personally was too chicken to get properly involved.

Edited November 13, 2011 by pantherairsoft

[mart]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1321049280' post='1435010']...But, can we accept that the mains lead thing is totally perception/psychological etc as it is physically impossible to make a difference ....[/quote]
Yes, absolutely.

[leroydiamond]

just this weekend I got my new handmade Leather strap (made from the rarest of cattle breeds, the wagyu), and I could hear the difference in my tone immediately!!
Tighter lows and clearer highs for sure . Our guitar player is ordering his next week!! well worth the £500 price tag. Comfort strap for sale.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='mart' timestamp='1321177591' post='1436031']
No. Sorry, but I can't let that stand. I've been on the Warwick forum a lot over the last few years, and I've seen a lot of sides to Florin, and as well as being an incredibly successful musician (bassist in the biggest band in the country!), he is also gentle and kind, and is absolutely the last person to deserve being called a "Profanity removed".

He doesn't come across terribly well on that thread, but then, look at that thread from his point of view. He approached these cables with an open mind, and did a careful A/B test, and heard a difference. His argument, then, is that somebody who hasn't actually used the cable has no right to tell him what he can or cannot hear. After all, he's a pro musician, he has good ears! If you approach this thing with a sufficiently open mind, then his point is perfectly correct, and it's a shame that he had to defend himself so much.

But. Those of us who look at this with some knowledge of the science cannot approach this with a truly open mind, because we know a lot of relevant things! We know that the cable [i]cannot[/i] make any audible difference, so it's all a matter of perception. Florin thinks he's countered that by doing the A/B test, and if you don't know enough about the placebo effect, then his test looks rigorous enough. But it's not, because the placebo effect is astoundingly hard to avoid, hence the need for double-blind tests. "Double-blind" is a phrase that gets bandied around too freely, and I suspect too many people use it without realizing exactly what it entails. When they do read what it involves, most people think it's totally unnecessary - surely it's enough if the patient doesn't know whether they're getting the real thing or a dummy. You need to have read a lot of the wierd things the placebo effect can do before you start seeing the need for such a complicated experiment.

I wish the scientists on that thread could have gently explained the need for a full double-blind test, and given some examples of how much we can trick ourselves, particularly with aural perception. But no, the scientists were too busy arguing to actually take the time to see where Flo was coming from. And I personally was too chicken to get properly involved.
[/quote]

So someone being able to tell the difference between two pieces of equipment they've heard, vs. people being able to tell the the lack of difference between two pieces of equipment they've never heard.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1321198200' post='1436311']
So someone being able to tell the difference between two pieces of equipment they've heard, vs. people being able to tell the the lack of difference between two pieces of equipment they've never heard.
[/quote]
Your ears are presumably better if you are a bassist in the biggest band in the country,

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1321198452' post='1436314']
Your ears are presumably better if you are a bassist in the biggest band in the country,
[/quote]

I think actually listening to stuff is the part that puts someone ahead of people who haven't. I am cheerful for anyone to doubt the ears of of anyone who's job is standing next to a drummer though. Its the trained listening of a musician that might be helpful.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1321198854' post='1436322']
I think actually listening to stuff is the part that puts someone ahead of people who haven't. I am cheerful for anyone to doubt the ears of of anyone who's job is standing next to a drummer though. Its the trained listening of a musician that might be helpful.
[/quote]
Ah but does being a bassist in the biggest band in the country give you better ears than a guy in the second or third or even a guy who's been a bassist for 40 years? I think there are some very tuned ears both at pro and hobby level.

(I have no idea who the biggest band in the country is btw)

[4 Strings]

It doesn't matter how big the band is, well respected the musician, how kind he is and how blindfolded he may be, or even how near crashing cymbals his ears may spend their time, it is not possible for a correctly functioning mains lead to affect the sound (unless it is a particularly bad one with poor connections and causes crackles etc - in which case it is not functioning correctly).

You're right, I've said it three times now. I'll stop.

[gelfin]

Here's another amusing "blind listening test" story for you.

A panel of 6 well respected members of the Hi Fi industry regularly did blind listening tests for a magazine. No names are going to be mentioned here.
The panel members are a mix of designers, sales reps and journalists. On the day in question they were testing a selection of speakers. The test was carried out without knowledge of any of the speakers being tested and they did not know what type make of electronics were used. The equipment was all set up behind an "acoustically transparent curtain".

At the end of the listening one panel member who was a speaker designer declared that speaker pair number 4 were awful and weren't worthy of being included in the test.

Imagine how embarressed he was to find that the speakers in question were his own design and selling really well in the shops.



Also I can do better than 50% accuracy blind testing cables.

Back to Mains cables. Yes I agree that there is little point spending loads on them however The Naim Audio Powerline mains cable does buck the trend when it comes to Hi FI systems. On a high end system the benefits can be heard. However on my GK Fusion 550 rig I can discern no difference.

Back to the beer, wine and single malt now.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1321219216' post='1436718']
Here's another amusing "blind listening test" story for you.

A panel of 6 well respected members of the Hi Fi industry regularly did blind listening tests for a magazine. No names are going to be mentioned here.
The panel members are a mix of designers, sales reps and journalists. On the day in question they were testing a selection of speakers. The test was carried out without knowledge of any of the speakers being tested and they did not know what type make of electronics were used. The equipment was all set up behind an "acoustically transparent curtain".
[/quote]

I remember reading a similar story in a hi-fi magazine many years ago, probably in the 70s. Same sort of set up as described above but the test was for overall 'fidelity' of a hi-fi system.

I forget the finer details but the gist of the story was that when they used some solo violin music to test the fidelity of the systems being tested, most listeners agreed on the 'system' they disliked the most . . . and it turned out to be a live violinist.

Anyone else remember all those "Is it real or is it Memorex" tape adverts?

[Mr. Foxen]

Some amps don't have an input transformer, just a big resistor, maybe they could make a difference there.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1321219216' post='1436718']

Back to Mains cables. Yes I agree that there is little point spending loads on them however The Naim Audio Powerline mains cable does buck the trend when it comes to Hi FI systems. On a high end system the benefits can be heard.
[/quote]

No they can't.

However, I bought a new battery for my car last year, I could discern a slight increase in acceleration and more responsive revving. Its the same. The battery provides the right voltage for the engine components to work. Same as the mains supply in your amp. Nothing is gained or lost by the voltage being 'more right'.

[bremen]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1321234428' post='1436877']
Some amps don't have an input transformer, just a big resistor, maybe they could make a difference there.
[/quote]

nope.

[bremen]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1321231431' post='1436865']
I remember reading a similar story in a hi-fi magazine many years ago, probably in the 70s. Same sort of set up as described above but the test was for overall 'fidelity' of a hi-fi system.

I forget the finer details but the gist of the story was that when they used some solo violin music to test the fidelity of the systems being tested, most listeners agreed on the 'system' they disliked the most . . . and it turned out to be a live violinist.

[/quote]

haha, I really want that to be true.

I also heard of an AB test of identical speakers: consistently different results depending on the colour of the grille cloth, where pale colours always led to a perception of a 'brighter' tone.

[pete.young]

My respect for Eric Johnson went down a notch or two when I heard that he thinks he can tell which brand of battery is in his effects pedals.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1321291122' post='1437400']
My respect for Eric Johnson went down a notch or two when I heard that he thinks he can tell which brand of battery is in his effects pedals.
[/quote]

..and which way round a resistor is in an effects pedal.

PS - I'm good at telling "dead" batteries in an effects pedal.

Edited November 14, 2011 by EBS_freak

[flyfisher]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1321292895' post='1437429']
PS - I'm good at telling "dead" batteries in an effects pedal.
[/quote]

Better than one of our guitarists then.

His electro-acoustic was sounding totally horrible at one rehearsal and he couldn't understand why. I asked him when he last changed the battery and he answered (yes, you're ahead of me) "what battery"?

A new battery was duly fitted and it sounded fine again.

[gelfin]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1321281427' post='1437258']
No they can't.

However, I bought a new battery for my car last year, I could discern a slight increase in acceleration and more responsive revving. Its the same. The battery provides the right voltage for the engine components to work. Same as the mains supply in your amp. Nothing is gained or lost by the voltage being 'more right'.
[/quote]

Have you ever tried a test of the Naim powerline and a standard mains cable?

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1321306264' post='1437693']
Have you ever tried a test of the Naim powerline and a standard mains cable?
[/quote]

Don't need to. It doesn't work.

If I told you that making a pot of tea with 15 teabags would make a brew that, once drunk, would allow you to fly unaided to the moon would you insist on a test before you dismissed my claims?

Anyone that buys a power cable and expects it to do anything beyond placebo effect demonstrably has more money than sense.

[stevie]

All you have to do is ask yourself why it costs 400 quid. You're answer's right there.

[Ou7shined]

[url="http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2011/11/08/essential-sound-products-announces-victor-wooten-and-gerald-veasley-signature-musiccord-pro-power-cords/"]http://www.notreble....ro-power-cords/[/url]

[4 Strings]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1321283048' post='1437297']
haha, I really want that to be true.

I also heard of an AB test of identical speakers: consistently different results depending on the colour of the grille cloth, where pale colours always led to a perception of a 'brighter' tone.
[/quote]

Rather like maple fingerboards are heard to be 'brighter' sounding than the harder rosewood.

[bumnote]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1321311722' post='1437800']
All you have to do is ask yourself why it costs 400 quid. You're answer's right there.
[/quote]

Thats where you are going wrong. A mere £400
You need these [url="http://www.highendcable.co.uk/Nordost%20VALHALLA%20Power.htm"]http://www.highendcable.co.uk/Nordost%20VALHALLA%20Power.htm[/url] at £2495 This will make your amp sound better, prevent you from playing wrong notes, and make you irresistable to the opposite sex

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1321311790' post='1437804']
[url="http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2011/11/08/essential-sound-products-announces-victor-wooten-and-gerald-veasley-signature-musiccord-pro-power-cords/"]http://www.notreble....ro-power-cords/[/url]
[/quote]

In trying to be fair to Victor Wooten, the only claim is that VW chose the colour, and, frankly, I'm disappointed he did that. (The only other claim is preceded by 'it is said that ...' - probably by the MDs parrot which would be enough to keep them out of court.)

Do they use gold fuse wire to ensure complete passage of the firm bass foundation and transient? Or am I thinking of another passage?

[flyfisher]

[i]"The cords are also heavily shielded to block RF interference and other outside noise."[/i]

So does Mr Wooten really believe that shielding the last metre of mains cable into an amp really makes a difference when the couple of hundred miles of mains cable back to the power station is all unshielded?

Reminds me of that Life of Brian sketch: (cue Wooten's mother flinging open a window and shouting to all his mindless followers) "He's not a bass god, he's a very naughty boy!"