Recording Process - How Do You Do It?

[flyfisher]

I'm not thnking about the technical stuff, more the procedural things.

I've been doing some home recording (using a DAW) of one band I play in as follows:

- a DI output from each of the two guitar amps and my bass.
- vocal mic
- drum machine as a simple click

Set up all inputs at max levels into the DAW
Play the song fairly quietly, to minimise spill into the vocal mic
Do a rough mix (not a mixdown!)
Overdub the drums; drummer using headphones, 2 overhead mics plus kick mic

Mute out the drum machine track
Do a rough mix
Overdub any backing vocals
Overdub any other instrumental bits

I now have all the parts of the songs recorded separately and can then do all the mixing/eq/effects stuff before mixing down to a stereo track.

My main issue is the drums and I wonder if I should really be recording them in the first 'live' take?

The reason I don't is to minimise overspill into the mics. Since I'm only in a home environment it's not practical to set up a 'drum booth' to isolate the drummer.

I do have a reflection filter for the vocal mic, which almost eliminates spill from the other instruments if we play fairly quietly.

Should I just not bother with the 'live' playing (albeit without drums) and just record the song track by track?

Any suggestions about how I could improve this process?

[BigRedX]

What's the end result of the recording going to be for?

[flyfisher]

Good question. It's mainly so we have a decent quality record (see what I did there ) of our original songs, though I guess we'll also put them on the web somewhere and use them for a demo CD for prospective gigs.

We're not trying to break into the music business but friends have asked if we have any recordings and all we have are fairly poor, badly balanced, one-mic recordings, so it would be nice to have something rather better.

[Twigman]

We are in the process of producing our 7th studio album in our home studios.
Don't tell anyone but most of the drums are sequenced.
We may sample odd bits of our drummer's percussion (claves for example) but most of the kit is sequenced using Toontrack Superior Drummer 2's factory NY Avater kit.

We make it sound like our drummer by recording him on a hand held HDD recorder during rehearsal then slicing up his patterns (I used to use Recycle but have found that Melodyne does just as good a job- recycle is not yet 64bit) and then create midi patterns from these sliced loops which can then be mapped to the samples in Superior Drummer - I then tweak the velocities to trigger different sample layers where necessary and play with the mic mix to give it some live vibe........

Hope that offers some help.

[ironside1966]

[size=5][font=Calibri][color=#000000]There are no set rules, If the band are well rehearsed and it is easy to get a faultless performance you will get a better feel if the musicians play together but you will get more controlif you record them individually . [/color][/font][/size]

[size=5][font=Calibri][color=#000000]On a modern day D A W there is no need to get the levels has high has most people think. Using a modern 24 bit system half way up the meters or a little less even is more than adequate. I find that some plug-ins start to sound harsh if they are driven too hard by a hot track and the same can be said for some D A convertors if the mix is too hot.[/color][/font]

[/size]
[size=5][font=Calibri][color=#000000]A typical recording of mine would be: [/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Program or find a suitable drum loop, If the loop has good feel you get a better performance.[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record guide guitar or and then vocal track.[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record bass if it will help with feel or highlight any accents or chord changes.[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record drums, make sure the drums a right before I move on. If you are going to fix the drums do it know before you move on. [/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record guitars, bass Keys in any order then often individually.[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Vocals and BV[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Lastly any programming EG, strings or percussion.[/color][/font][/size]

Edited November 9, 2011 by ironside1966

[gilmour]

I've been doing an 'originals' project lately where we've been recording.

For us the process was:
- DI guitar and bass, keys straight into the computer, two overheads on the kit, then vocals.
- We recorded all of that live (to a click but we play to a click anyway).
- This was mixed into a quick guide track
- We then went back and have taken our time re-recording each instrument individually (muting it on the guide as we did so)
- Once we've re-recorded everything we put on overdubs etc. and any extra parts we want to put on.

I'm pretty pleased with the results. We're in the middle of mixing it atm, you can hear it [url="http://soundcloud.com/rob-the-bass/01-last-goodbye-mix-1"]here[/url] if you're interested. Although my Stingray sounds too much like a stingray so I may re track the bass when I have a weekend free.

[Twigman]

[quote name='gilmour' timestamp='1320878492' post='1432801']
you can hear it [url="http://soundcloud.com/rob-the-bass/01-last-goodbye-mix-1"]here[/url] if you're interested. Although my Stingray sounds too much like a stingray so I may re track the bass when I have a weekend free.
[/quote]
That is remarkably polished for a home recording, personally I think your bass sounds fine.
Good job!

[mike257]

My recent forays into low budget practice room recording have been pretty straightforward really.

Mic the kit and take a bass DI, track rhythm section with bass in drummers headphones
Overdub guitars
Track the vox
Mix!

If its not practical to track live, I always prefer to get a really solid take of the rhythm section as a foundation to work from, and build on that.

[Bilbo]

Because of the nature of my set up, I tend to record one instrument at a time. Sometimes its drum machine first, sometimes guitar, sometimes even bass, although usually to a click. Depends what I am trying to achieve. My recordings tend to be simple sketch demos for my own compositions but I have had some success with recording whole bands (see Clandestino on my soundcloud page). My favourite recordings are live recordings of great players playing great, particularly acoustic instruments. Hours spent knobbing about with sequencers etc are, in my experience, pretty unrewarding and I prefer proper mic placement and real players anytime. I do enjoy recording solo bass though; me, a double bass and a Rode NT1-A microphone. Simple

[Earbrass]

Perhaps because I am a keyboard player first and foremost, or perhaps because I spent years "knobbing about with sequencers etc" producing soundtracks, I tend to start off by sketching everything out in MIDI. This means I can tinker with the tempo, the key, the instrumentation and the structure very simply and quickly, until I find a version that works. I then record the MIDI tracks to audio, and then use this a kind of guide scaffolding to record the real tracks round. Most of the MIDI stuff usually ends up being replaced by real instruments, but not all - drums and percussion I tend not to try recording for real, and MIDI piano / keyboard / tuned-percussion lines can sound very convincing (and I don't have a real piano / organ / vibraphone etc).

Edited November 10, 2011 by Earbrass

[Bilbo]

+1 for piano/vibe/percussion samples. Ususally pretty useful now. I sometime do the same but by writing out the composition in Sibelius, saving it as a midi file, exporting to Cubase and then changing the VST instruments in CUbase to something more convincing (Edirol Orchestra, Halion stuff, FM8 or Massive synths etc etc) or jsut replacing the midi instrument with real guitars/bass etc.

[flyfisher]

Thanks for those interesting replies.

I agree with the point about recording everything together to get a good 'feel' but, frankly, it would probably take us ages to get a perfect take. And if a song has to be played too many times then some of the 'feel' gets lost anyway, it seems - though that may just be us!

It never ceases to amaze me how little mistakes are completely overlooked at a gig but stick out in a recording. I guess because once they are known on the recording they become predicable and part of the permanent record.

I've been separating out the drums to minimise mic-spill but I like the suggestion of recording everything live for the first take (warts and all) and then re-recording each instrument separately to get a perfect take, then mixing all the perfect takes. I think I'll give that a try.

Interesting point about sequencing all the drums though. Given the difficulty our drummer seems to have with following a click it might be the easiest option! I've used my Alesis SR16 for a 'proper' drum track (as opposed to just a simple click beat) on some recordings and it sometimes sounds better than the drummer. Oh dear.

But it's good to know I'm not doing anything fundamentally wrong. I sort of thought that there are no real rules as such and that the end result is the all-important thing, but it's always good to hear about 'good practice' and how to make things as easy as possible.

Thanks again.

Edited November 10, 2011 by flyfisher

[BottomE]

My setup is audio soundcard into dodgy old laptop running Cubase. I always do one track at a time. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the drums are all samples or programmed. My main use of this setup is for practising new songs. If i am learning a Cover song then i will either use a midi file and re-assign the midi tracks to decent synths. More often these days i'll rip something off of YouTube and EQ the bass out and use that. Something that i have noticed is that i often achieve a better bass sound at home direct into my £140 soundcard than i will in a studio with thousands of pounds worth of gear Whats that all about.

Edited November 10, 2011 by BottomE

[Rimskidog]

This is where your process goes wrong:

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1320873274' post='1432705']
Set up all inputs at max levels into the DAW
[/quote]

You should be aiming so that your meters average at about -18dbfs maximum. I tend to be conservative even on that. -18 to -20 dbfs (ie what your daw shows) is a rough equivalent to 0dbvu (which is unity gain in an analogue system). If you exceed that it's a rough equivalent of burning your audio. (And we all know that once you've burnt toast no matter what you to do it, it still smells like burnt toast.)

Other than that, it's really then down to the performance. There are a million ways to set up. Go with whatever gives you the best outcome. I tend to get everyone to play together for a 'ghost track' then overdub everything separately replacing each instrument as I go. Don't worry about too much separation when you are overdubbing drums: it's easy to forget that drums are 'one instrument'. They need to sound as such. Good luck!

Edited November 11, 2011 by Rimskidog

[Bilbo]

Good book I came across:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guerilla-Home-Recording-Studio-Leonard/dp/1423454464/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321003617&sr=8-1

[51m0n]

As long as you keep your gain structure good - ie like Rimskidog suggests, although I am guilty of peaks that hit -12dB on the drums quite alot (irons hands) - then you are good. If you haven't got excellent kit, and plenty of experience then you dont want to be driving anything analogue too hard, better safe than sorry. Caveate is you need to be recording at 24bits, not 16. Yes it does make a difference!

Workflow is completely dependant on what you have available to you though.

If you have access to a good (no make that great ) sounding live room (big barns can be superb IME - hay bale walls make great iso booths too! ) then you can do wonders with getting everything together for a blast through.

You of course need enough inputs to track everything, the minimum is one. Really you can record a band with one mic in a phenominal sounding space, and it will sound fab, then overdub the vox and anything else (even the drums again). You'd better have great sounding instruments perfectly set up and maintained and played superbly though.

Other end of the stick is loads of overdubs, multiple mics on the kit, full on mix down yada yada.

Depends what you are after, what you need it for, and what kit you have available etc. I've had perfectly reasonable resutls tracking drums with a Zoom H4n, just needed to be really careful to get the kit sounding fantastic in the room (its worth wandering around the room listening to the reverb to try and find a sweet spot for the kit - move it a few times if you arent sure, all assuming you ahve the time to do so) and then was very very careful with the placement of the kick and snare mic. Trade off was that the floor tom was always going to be a bit weak, but then the drummer never played it . Did it sound better than a really good studio, well no, unless the guy in the studio didnt know his beans. Did it sound as good? Well close enough to fool almost anyone to be honest, especially after it had been mixed down.

When tracking really really think about and listen to mic position. If you dont have many mics, then its crucial to get the very best sound at the source that you can. Very few people doing home recording realise what a huge difference in timbre moving a mic just a few inches in relation to the source can have. If you are micing at distance from the source move around listening to it through your favoured ear (we all have one, I listen better with my left ear) and when you find the spot put the mic there, then make sure the angle is best, turning a mic through 45 degrees completely changes its frequency response, and when close micing can be the difference between overloading the diaphragm and not. Lots to try and experiment with, so make the time to do so. The better your tracked sounds work the easier it is to mix!

Try and think of your recording process as the following set of tasks:-

[b]Pre production[/b] - getting the parts for the recording worked out, thats writing every part, arranging them, rehearsing them, and practicing recording them. Yup, practice recording the tracks, rough as you like, in reheasal, but aiming for performance always. The on ething you dont want to be worrying about when recording is how the bridge goes, what tempo, "[b]OH MY GOD THE RED LIGHT IS ON, WHICH END DO I BLOW THROUGH!?!?!?!"[/b], or writing the thrird BV harmony for the outro. Get it all worked out so all you are doing is making a recording of it. Can not emphasise how much better it will go for you if you really get this stage right, particularly if you want a live and spontaneous feel to the traqck. As soon as someone is fixing bits that are wrong they are not making music in a spontaneous fashion, and as has been noted above, when you record something if it isnt absolutely bang on you have to live with it forever, and everyone else will hear it. So get everyone used to tracking. Its a real discipline, and is the absolute essence of recording.

[b]Tracking[/b] - the act of recording parts. Break this down into:-
[b]Getting the sound[/b] - kit set up, mic positions, amp settings, test runs, gain structure - all of it should be kept seperate from....
[b]Getting the performance[/b] - the musical bit, ideally 3 takes for a part if you want a 'live' sound, anymore and people reign in the performance to minimise the chance of an error (hey we're bored we want to 'take a break| take a dump| go for a beer| eat lunch| have sex| be anywhere but here') in order to get out of there. If you are after absolutel perfection then comping parts, multiple takes, multiple overdubs, using any and every trick at your disposal is perfectly fine, and if you are truly skillful no one but you will know how much you cheated - caveate, you need to ensure that the spill is always there or you will find overdubs change the feel of the track substantially and this can become obvious, and then we know you cheated. So overdub individually, and watch that you minimise spill in your initial altogether tracking. Obviously you cant fix anything in the orginal all playing together part so you have to get it right, live with it, or overdub everything.

Remember the vocal is the 'money shot', it must be perfect - ie it must be the perfect take, when comped, not it must be perfectly in tune - if you are a punk band then that is an oxymoron anyway, but it must evoke the perfect emotional response. You can do massive amounts to a vocal in the mix, you can not make it raise the hairs on the back of someones neck - that has to be in there from the moment its tracked IME.

Allow as long for bvs as you did for the lead vocal. They are as important, especially in modern poppier stuff.

A really top engineer will often ride the gain into any outboard compressors throughout a take, will set up different settings based upon the song section. For now just track it as clean as you can!

There are two schools of thought wrt processing whilst getting a take. On the one hand you can take big mix decisions at the time of making a take, this forces you in a direcion sonically takes away guess work at mix down and can really speed the process of getting a recording finished along. On the other hand a poorly set up gate, eq, compressor or some other effect can paint you into a corner or worse ruin your otherwise perfect take, If you arent sure what you are doing, then get takes as great sounding as possible using nothing but mic position and gain structure, that way you lose nothing, and do all the processing at mix down.

[b]Getting the mix[/b] - this is probably the hardest bit to get right. You have to learn what sounds are texture, what are up front, how to blend it all into one cohesive whole, in a virtual space. The more tracks the harder it is, dont be afraid to make things almost inaudible, learn how to eq, and use a compressor, learn about reverb vs delay for ambience. Learn a bit about what effects do what, and how to set them up. Above all experiment - there are no hard and fast rules, just what sounds good, for the song in question, and what doesn't. It gets subjective very quickly, and your taste is called into question very soon after you start. The issue is that there are so many variables to play with, so many ways to skin this particular cat, and you need to find one that brings the best out of the song.

Every single song is different, every single one needs different levels different balancing acts, a different approach almost.

I recommend you read [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/ZEN-Art-Mixing-Mixerman/dp/1423491505/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321007273&sr=1-1"]Zen and the Art of Mixing[/url] for an insight in how to mix stuff down, its not technical, its about how to approach mixing for the song. There are other technical tomes out there, but very few better descriptions of how to approach making a mix work IMO.

Get reference material to a/b against and compare all the way through the mix. This is not cheating, its keeping your perspective accurate, mix to a goal, always, or you will almost never ever nail the mix. After you have been mixing for ten years, you need refer to a previous mix less, but dont think thepros arent referring to other mixes all the time, they are!

IME mixing with the band present is a recipe for disaster. Everyone thinks that having their instrument heard is the most important thing. It isnt, the song is the most important thing, and all of them are just a little part of that. You are best off getting the reference material right and bouncing mixes off one representative (singers are good at this, their perspective is closest to the publics usually) and after they are happy deal with the hurt that is the guitarist and bassist (drummers are usually happy, they are more often than not loud enough, keyboard players are happy if you can tell they are on the record at all). At some point (pick your battles carefully) you have to tell someone they are wrong. They wont like you for it, they will argue. Be prepared to show them what happens if they get their way. Thats when you find out who the team players really are!

[b]Mastering[/b] - the art of compiling an album/ep from the mixed tracks. This is tricky stuff, if you arent sure then there are very reasonably priced mastering studios out there with good/great gear and engineers. By all means have a go itb with plugins, I do it all the time and get pretty darned reasonable results IMO, but you will nearly always be beaten by the guy with the 25 years of experience and £25000 monitors and all the rest of the kit in a specially constructed mastering room. There would be something very wrong if that weeren't the case!

Above all enjoy it, make something you can be proud of and do it again next week

Oh and sorry for the essay, I was trying to be succinct, but I think I failed ......

[paul_5]

I tend to write in Sibelius, then bounce the MIDI file into protools. From then on I'll just replace each part as and when the opportunity arises. Most of my drum tracks come from easy drummer, whether it's importing loops or a MIDI drum kit (I know, it's cheating, but in my defence, how many drummers do you know who are happy to switch between irregular meters all day?). The guitars are generally done by my brother in his lounge (nice, big room) using Mid/Side mic'ing (generally), then the keys, bass and vocals are done back at mine - usually at my kitchen table - from then on I leave them for a couple of weeks.

When I go back to them if I still like the track/arrangement then I'll push it forwards, if not, then it's one for the "we thought this was all sh*te when he was alive, but now he's dead and we still need to recoup" album that'll be released 'post mortem'.

What a happy thought.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1321003147' post='1434152']
This is where your process goes wrong:

[quote]Set up all inputs at max levels into the DAW[/quote]


You should be aiming so that your meters average at about -18dbfs maximum. I tend to be conservative even on that. -18 to -20 dbfs (ie what your daw shows) is a rough equivalent to 0dbvu (which is unity gain in an analogue system). If you exceed that it's a rough equivalent of burning your audio. (And we all know that once you've burnt toast no matter what you to do it, it still smells like burnt toast.)
[/quote]

Yep, agree with all that. My "max levels" comment was not vary clear. What I really meant was that I set all the channel gains to the maximum 'safe' level for the instrument with no attempt to try to mix levels at this stage of recording. I'm just trying to get the loudest recording on each track without getting anywhere near peaking.

[quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1321003147' post='1434152']
Don't worry about too much separation when you are overdubbing drums: it's easy to forget that drums are 'one instrument'. They need to sound as such. Good luck!
[/quote]

Again, fair point. I've been trying to separate drums from the other instruments/vocals but not from themselves. Anyway, I don't have enough gear to mic every drum so I've been using a couple of overheads and a kick mic. I've read a few articles on micing and recording drum kits and, frankly, it seems to be very much an art borne out of lots of experience - which I don't pretend to have. I can quite understand why many people sequence their drum tracks!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1321008877' post='1434245']

Oh and sorry for the essay, I was trying to be succinct, but I think I failed ......
[/quote]

Please don't apologise. You may have failed to be succinct but that was all useful stuff - thanks for taking the time!

I particularly related to the pre-production preparation and the performance points. This is a definite source of frustration for me. I'm not pretending we're anything other than a bunch of mates making music for fun but I do think we have some half-decent original songs and I'd like to get the best possible recordings I can. What really frustrates me is when we rehearse a song and, understandably, it's all a bit rough and (un)ready yet at the end of the song a couple of the band members are saying 'great, that sounded brilliant' when quite clearly it was pretty crappy! What bugs me even more is that they don't seem to vary their opinion when they listen to the rehearsal recording!

I'm not saying I'm any better than the others - I'm as prone to playing mistakes as any of them - but I can tell when things are not right. At least I think I can. I've always been of the view that the best way to improve overall performance (in all sorts of things) is to concentrate on developing what you're not good at. Still, I guess that's all part of band dynamics - nobody said it would be easy!

I don't expect to become a world-class recording/mix engineer overnight (or ever in reality!) but I'm keen to avoid all the basic things that can go wrong so I at least have a fighting chance of a half-decent recording. But the more I learn, the more I realise how much I don't know and how much I appreciate the skills of people who can really turn out high quality recordings.

Thanks again for sharing.

[urb]

Great topic for discussion - it's the eternal question 'where do you start?' especially now with so much technology freely available - Simon's post is spot on - I agree wholeheartedly on the topic of mixing and mastering - I think we can all do a half decent job at home but like he says mastering especially is a real art and best left to the pros - likewise I have very recent experience of letting someone else mix tunes I've recorded live in the studio and it's much better not being there while they do and hearing it fresh afterward. The temptation is always there to offer bits of advice to the mixing engineer while they are doing it - providing you trust the person doing it and they are right for the job (that's an important issue too - choosing the wrong person can be disastrous!). It's definitely good to have a fresh perspective on a song too away from the musicians as they can often be too close to the music to see/hear some things that need changing.

Personally I often start writing a song via a chord progression - pretty much everything comes after that - I use Melodyne Editor to create MIDI parts from my bass chords/melodies/basslines - which works pretty well and the tracking is pretty much flawless if you've played the bits OK. I've recently then got some brilliant musicians to come in a re-record or add parts and that really is the icing on the cake - but a strong melody/chord progression and a good song or musical idea are the foundation of a good performance IMO - I prefer cutting stuff live, but when that's not possible most things can be recorded at home and luckily for me I have a good friend who's a great fully paid up studio engineer who can track drums for me any time...

The one thing I will say is I still have a massive amount to learn about recording stuff but I learn so much each time I do it - I'm so much more confident and (relatively) knowledgeable compared to when I started fooling about with Garageband 5 years ago!

[WalMan]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1321012747' post='1434327'] it's one for the "we thought this was all sh*te when he was alive, but now he's dead and we still need to recoup" album that'll be released 'post mortem'.[/quote]
Got hard disks full of those

[paul_5]

[quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1321022258' post='1434484']
Got hard disks full of those
[/quote]

Ooooh, a boxset.

[gilmour]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1320880107' post='1432828']

That is remarkably polished for a home recording, personally I think your bass sounds fine.
Good job!
[/quote]

Thanks, I'm very pleased with how it sounds. To be fair as all the band are pro or so pro players we do have access to some nice kit and managed to blah a load of nics for the recording (that made a huge difference) if you are wanting to do home recordings then I'd say investing in or borrowing some decent mics is essential

Still want to retract the bass - its just not bassy enough

[Skol303]

[quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1321003147' post='1434152']
You should be aiming so that your meters average at about -18dbfs maximum.[/quote]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1321008877' post='1434245']
As long as you keep your gain structure good - ie like Rimskidog suggests, although I am guilty of peaks that hit -12dB on the drums quite alot (irons hands) - then you are good. [/quote]

^ Useful advice from you guys, as always!

Quick question: do these meter averages apply to mixing too? I'm asking because I normally aim for my meters to peak around -4 or -8db when mixing, to help leave some room for my cack-handed mastering (!). That's Peak level btw, not VU or PPM.

[51m0n]

Haha, good question!

If you are using a DAW that is known to have something outrageous like a 64bit internal audio system (Reaper for instance) and stick to its built in fx then whatever you do is irrelevant assuming the master is set low enough that the final output never peaks (and gives room for your cack handed mastering).

But who wants to do that? So many lovely vsts exist that have a good sound to them, you would be mad to not use them.

In which case there is a strong argument to really take care that your levels stay well in the safe area at all times, since those vsts are unlikely to have such a ridiculously wonderfully over engineered internal audio system, and you could therefore end up with some nasty stuff happening.

For my own part I really try and keep the levels at very sensible place all the way through the DAW. Peaks at -12dB are perfectly sane for me. Whether or not the above is 100% accurate (and I think it probably has at least some basis in truth) I dont see any reason to risk it. I use a lot of groups and groups within groups when mixing, it helps me organise things and achieve the results I want to achieve, and I use a lot of fx, and only a few of them are internal to the DAW. Be that as it may, I dont want to get to the master buss and have to pull that fader way down to get a sensible output level, that seems daft.

Turn the monitor amp up higher and mix at the same volume.....