Key Change Hell!

[deepbass5]

Some interesting things coming out of this topic, The old 5 string debate, one reason I eventually went down the 5 route was all those 80 -90's disco songs below E and playing notes up an octave just didn't do the song justice, the other thing a 5 string gives you is even more flexibility changing keys and avoiding open strings. I guess the main point coming out here is we don't like playing out of our comfort zone. As said above we probably are best placed to change keys with least mental work than on other instruments.

[EssentialTension]

Agreed that a 5-string can do the trick but I'm more comfortable with a d-tuner and so DADG than I am with the extra string.

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1321185613' post='1436147']
Some interesting things coming out of this topic, The old 5 string debate, one reason I eventually went down the 5 route was all those 80 -90's disco songs below E and playing notes up an octave just didn't do the song justice, the other thing a 5 string gives you is even more flexibility changing keys and avoiding open strings.
[/quote]

I don't do disco but agree totally on 5ers being beneficial for key changes and less worries about patterns involving open strings. Eb on a 5er is not a problem.

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1321185613' post='1436147']
I guess the main point coming out here is we don't like playing out of our comfort zone. As said above we probably are best placed to change keys with least mental work than on other instruments.
[/quote]

Particularly on a 5er, yeah

Andy

[chris_b]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1321145419' post='1435946']
....I'm still not sure of the cause of all this key change nonsense, however, the vocalists were blamed in their absence!....
[/quote]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]It is usually the vocalists. Most of them are so restricted in what they can do with minimal technique that we all have to work to their limitations. I have never yet played with a vocalist who said play it in your key. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][font=Arial] [/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font]
[size=4][font=Arial][color="#000000"]Guitarists are the next limiting factor in a band… but that’s a different topic![/color][/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2] [/size][/font]

[Silvia Bluejay]

I play A LOT of disco and had to get a 5-stringer pronto as soon as my beginner's fretting hand became able to tackle one!
Disco relies on octaves - at its most basic, you will have the same note repeated several times, but the first time it will be, for instance, a low D, immediately followed by two high Ds, then another low D, before changing chord and moving on. You simply can't do that properly on anything other than a 5-stringer.

Quite apart from disco, there are rock and pop songs which rely on octaves; the reason why I'm hoping one day to buy an upright 5-stringer is that transposing for the normal upright often ruins the effect completely.

[discreet]

I [i]won't [/i]play a 5-stringer! If you can't do it on a 4 then it's not worth doing, IMHO!

(Hides in cupboard under the stairs)

[Silvia Bluejay]

You will NOT be invited to my 70s naked disco party then

[PURPOLARIS]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1321185613' post='1436147']
Some interesting things coming out of this topic, The old 5 string debate, one reason I eventually went down the 5 route was all those 80 -90's disco songs below E and playing notes up an octave just didn't do the song justice, the other thing a 5 string gives you is even more flexibility changing keys and avoiding open strings. I guess the main point coming out here is we don't like playing out of our comfort zone. As said above we probably are best placed to change keys with least mental work than on other instruments.
[/quote]

+1 to this. I moved to 5 string for this reason, it's so much easier to transpose. I tend to stay away from open strings as much as possible as I prefer to fret the note which gives me more control over it.

[RhysP]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1321206805' post='1436473']
You will NOT be invited to my 70s naked disco party then
[/quote]
I hope "70's" refers to the decade and not the age of the people who will be attending your naked disco party....

[Silvia Bluejay]

LOL yes, the decade
By the same token I guess when I get round to having a heavy metal party, I'll have to specify that invitees are not required to wear steel or lead garments

Edit - dontcha hate typos. Grr.

Edited November 13, 2011 by bluejay

[BottomE]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1321193925' post='1436258']
I [i]won't [/i]play a 5-stringer! If you can't do it on a 4 then it's not worth doing, IMHO!

(Hides in cupboard under the stairs)
[/quote]
I think you'll need to find a better hiding place before the 5 string brigade get their hands on ya.

Choice of key IME are usually decided by band members in a hierarchical structure normally like this....

Vocalist
Guitarist
Keys
Horns
Drummer
Members of the Audience
Passers-by
Bassist

There are loads of times we have changed key for the vocalist which i can understand. Guitarists and keys seem to have favourite chord voicings. Brass usually like Bb etc etc. Its pretty rare that the bassist is asked for an opinion and its true that a lot of songs sound very different if you have to play them on a different part of the fretboard. That said, nearly all the great disco lines were originally played on 4 string basses. I don't agree that you need to have a 5 string to play great disco bass. And to prove it heres an absolutely monster bass line from an old fashioned 4 string

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEtS2cRWjOk

[Silvia Bluejay]

Not a huge fan of the guy, but yes, you *can* play disco on 4 strings. Whether you should, or want to, given the existence of 5-string basses, is another matter

[EssentialTension]

I'd rather go BEAD if really necessary.

Edited November 13, 2011 by EssentialTension

[PURPOLARIS]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1321208640' post='1436504']
I think you'll need to find a better hiding place before the 5 string brigade get their hands on ya.

Choice of key IME are usually decided by band members in a hierarchical structure normally like this....

Vocalist
Guitarist
Keys
Horns
Drummer
Members of the Audience
Passers-by
Bassist

There are loads of times we have changed key for the vocalist which i can understand. Guitarists and keys seem to have favourite chord voicings. Brass usually like Bb etc etc. Its pretty rare that the bassist is asked for an opinion and its true that a lot of songs sound very different if you have to play them on a different part of the fretboard. That said, nearly all the great disco lines were originally played on 4 string basses. I don't agree that you need to have a 5 string to play great disco bass. And to prove it heres an absolutely monster bass line from an old fashioned 4 string

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEtS2cRWjOk[/media]
[/quote]

Yes but that is in its original key

[Silvia Bluejay]

"I'd rather go BEAD if really necessary."

Whaaat-everrrr...

Edited November 13, 2011 by bluejay

[bobbass4k]

It could be worse, a guitarist once asked if we could change for D to B minor........

[peteb]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1321187411' post='1436175']
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]It is usually the vocalists. Most of them are so restricted in what they can do with minimal technique that we all have to work to their limitations. I have never yet played with a vocalist who said play it in your key. [/font][/color][/size]

[size=4][font=Arial][color=#000000]Guitarists are the next limiting factor in a band… but that’s a different topic![/color][/font][/size]
[/quote]
To be fair, what a singer can do is limited to an extent by their physical capabilities rather than just technique and a lot of guitar parts are very dependant on the use of open strings!

The only time I have ever considered getting a 5 string is because of people calling out songs in strange keys!

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' timestamp='1321208119' post='1436496']
I tend to stay away from open strings as much as possible as I prefer to fret the note which gives me more control over it.
[/quote]

Ditto.

[Silvia Bluejay]

Same here, it's easier to mute unwanted vibrations that way. But open strings are good when the note is long.

[deepbass5]

I was happily playing a 4 string when Disco hit town and into the 90's but a 4 string isn’t much good when all the hit songs you are trying to play are being created on 5 string basses and using synth's
In the early 80's the drummer thought he was going extinct due to programmed drums and digital recording techniques, then the bass player went through the same issues when every keyboard player started laying down bass lines.
Good news is we are still here to debate it. I even bought a Yamaha DX7 to compete, but then decided if I can't play it on the bass I don't wanna play it on anything else.
[b]Keep this on the key change thread[/b], we don't think any less of you for playing only 4 strings, just admire how quickly you can wiz up and down the neck. I would seriously go back to 4 strings but for the ability to change keys and keep the same familiar patterns, avoiding open strings. Except of late when reading I have been trying to incorporate more open strings like upright players to give more hand positioning and thinking time.

[discreet]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1321206805' post='1436473']
You will NOT be invited to my 70s naked disco party then
[/quote]

[b][size=5]D'OH!![/size][/b]

[algmusic]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' timestamp='1321208119' post='1436496']
+1 to this. I moved to 5 string for this reason, it's so much easier to transpose. I tend to stay away from open strings as much as possible as I prefer to fret the note which gives me more control over it.
[/quote]

I moved to a 5 for this reason, but know have moved back as I can play songs in any key.

If you want to be a versatile player and play with lots of people you shouldn't be limited to playing it in the 'orginal key', it's how you lose gigs.. the only person you are limiting is yourself.

As a nip playing in church, I got used to playing the same song in almost every key based on who was singing that night or if they felt they reach the key I would get told the song is in G then they would tell me during the song to transpose to B.. I'm so grateful for those days now as transposing is easy to me.. I understand the arguement that some notes may not sound better.. but i'm pretty sure if you hired Nathan East he won't say 'why are we not playing it in the original key'

Break out

[algmusic]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1321217812' post='1436688']
I was happily playing a 4 string when Disco hit town and into the 90's but a 4 string isn’t much good when all the hit songs you are trying to play are being created on 5 string basses and using synth's
In the early 80's the drummer thought he was going extinct due to programmed drums and digital recording techniques, then the bass player went through the same issues when every keyboard player started laying down bass lines.
Good news is we are still here to debate it. I even bought a Yamaha DX7 to compete, but then decided if I can't play it on the bass I don't wanna play it on anything else.
[b]Keep this on the key change thread[/b], we don't think any less of you for playing only 4 strings, just admire how quickly you can wiz up and down the neck. I would seriously go back to 4 strings but for the ability to change keys and keep the same familiar patterns, avoiding open strings. Except of late when reading I have been trying to incorporate more open strings like upright players to give more hand positioning and thinking time.
[/quote]

There is another thing about 5's. is that they don't sound like 4's... and I mean even when you play the same notes.. I did a gig when I switched to my 5 and it didn't sound as good as my 4 even on the octave higher. The relationship with notes on the 4 for me is king over the 5'... I sometime us my bass synth for some stuff where I need a sythy- low sound.. but have seen less and less use for it..

5's are flexible, but for me 4's sound better

[Silvia Bluejay]

Hm, are you comparing like with like? Same make of bass guitar, same pickups, internal electronics, string type/quality, etc.? My impression is that, all other things being equal, a 5-stringer might sound marginally less bright because its pickups need to be better suited to detecting lower frequencies than those on a 4-stringer, but that's just about it. If you use any effects, they should make light work of correcting that problem.

[BottomE]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1321285317' post='1437319']
There is another thing about 5's. is that they don't sound like 4's... and I mean even when you play the same notes.. I did a gig when I switched to my 5 and it didn't sound as good as my 4 even on the octave higher. The relationship with notes on the 4 for me is king over the 5'... I sometime us my bass synth for some stuff where I need a sythy- low sound.. but have seen less and less use for it..

5's are flexible, but for me 4's sound better
[/quote]

It's true which is i think subconciously (one of the reasons) why i ditched my 5 string basses. An open E on a 4 string sounds way better than a fretted E on the the B string of a 5. I know someones gonna say "Yes but what about Eb?" Well what about it. There are a shed load of tunes in Eb that sound absolutely great played on a 4 string. Whats the problem?

Really its not an issue transposing songs on a bass. I think its easier to do on bass than a lot of other instruments.