Music tutor books fill me with dread! again.

[beastly]

Hi, many times in my 35years of music tinkering i have tried to understand how to read notes and staffs and take on harmonic theory. I had bass lessons years ago and got totally despondant plonking away at straight eights up and down the lines. I understand how it all works , triplets and keys etc but i cant seem to spend the time really getting it down to a tee.

Do you think this is a personal limitation or would the right teacher be able to help me with this ? would have to be a good teacher as i have the attention span of a peanut.

Can pretty much work out any chord or scale on guitar as i have studied the technicals a lot over the years but i just cant seem to commit it to memory, i still dont know the notes on the neck without considerable time to find them.

[JakeBrownBass]

I don't think theres any real tricks to learning it.
It's just a matter of putting the time in.

Recognising notes on the fretboard should be one of the first things any player should learn.

If you learn the C major scale on the fret board, starting from the lowest note (E) up and down the next, saying the note names as you do you'll start recognising intervals on the neck and how the notes look together. Once you have this down, its just connecting the dots in-between.

This will then go hand in hand with reading sheet music, you'll never be able to sight read if you can't translate whats on the page to your fretboard.

[charic]

I'm from a keyboard background. Quite a few people say that reading notation makes more sense when you can apply it to something as visually distinctive as a keyboard.

Plus having the basics of another instrument under your belt can never hurt

For what it's worth I can sight read on keyboard but have never felt the need to sight read any more than rhythm on bass.

[louisthebass]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1321307792' post='1437715']
I don't think theres any real tricks to learning it.
It's just a matter of putting the time in.

Recognising notes on the fretboard should be one of the first things any player should learn.

If you learn the C major scale on the fret board, starting from the lowest note (E) up and down the next, saying the note names as you do you'll start recognising intervals on the neck and how the notes look together. Once you have this down, its just connecting the dots in-between.

This will then go hand in hand with reading sheet music, you'll never be able to sight read if you can't translate whats on the page to your fretboard.
[/quote]

What the man said above.

[beastly]

Usefull points..

Really dont know why i cant memorise bass neck or keyboard both of which i really enjoy playing, im not a guitar fan though. So instead of busting my head trying to learn music notation i need to get the keys and frets commited to memory then the dots will come easier at a later date.

Im actually going to put note names on my keys *shamed

thanks for the input. i know what i will be doing these winter nights now.

[Wylie]

[quote name='beastly' timestamp='1321309227' post='1437741']
Usefull points..

Really dont know why i cant memorise bass neck or keyboard both of which i really enjoy playing, im not a guitar fan though. So instead of busting my head trying to learn music notation i need to get the keys and frets commited to memory then the dots will come easier at a later date.

Im actually going to put note names on my keys *shamed

thanks for the input. i know what i will be doing these winter nights now.
[/quote]

There's nothing to be ashamed of. What helped me start identifying notes, and understanding the relationships of notes and chords, was to arpeggiate the chords and name the notes aloud as I went, for example in C, 'C, E, G' for the 1st, 3rd and 5th of the C major chord.

I find reading music very difficult; I think, like the man said above, you have to put in the time. In my case, a teacher definitely helps. I have a great teacher.

Edited November 15, 2011 by tedgilley

[topo morto]

Do you have a use for it? I understand music notation but can't read it at any speed, and it doesn't particularly bother me.

If you basically 'get the idea', maybe dive in and use it for what you want to use it for,
and if you have no use for it... don't bother?

[wal4string]

There is no great secret to learning the notes on a fretboard. Its just a case of remembering a few simple facts, 1. The notes E and F are always a fret apart [a semitone] and B and C also. 2. A sharp [#] raises the note and a flat [b] lowers a note. 3. A sharp note also has a flat equivilant which is infact the same note.ie. an F# is the same as a Gb. There are only 12 note names. Often students find this simple fact hard to grasp, not through stupidity but because they beleived it was far more complicated. With this in mind and remembering fact 1. if you play an open E [bottom and thickest string] and then play a note on the first fret, this is an F. On the second fret this is an F# or a Gb. The note on the third fret is a G. The note on the fourth fret is a G# or an Ab. On the 5th fret is an A, which is the same note as your 3rd string. Still remebering fact one you can carry on a note per fret up to the twelve fret which is the same note as the open string only an octave higher.If all this still seems complicated then you need to put your logical thinking hat on. The trick is to realise that the higher up the fret board you go past the 4th fret more than one of the exact same note and pitch is available. For example the note on the twelve fret of the E string, an E is exactly the same note and pitch as the note on the 7th fret of the A string plus on the 2nd fret of the D string. How do you remember where all these notes are? Practice is a plus, but, lets say you are use to playing a tweve bar blues in E starting on the 2nd fret of the D string, the first 4 bars can be played without having to change position but when it comes to playing the next 2 sections for the A and B chord then you have a big shift in position. But if the whole piece is played starting on the 7th fret of the A string then only a two fret shift is needed to play the B section. All this is a lot harder to explain than actually play but I hope this helps. Being able to read music will make playing any song so much more enjoyable. If you don't and are content to just dive in to any musical situation so be it but you will no doubt limit yourself to a narrow field and genre which, at the end of the day most likely will limit any work offers.

[beastly]

[quote name='topo morto' timestamp='1321448015' post='1439213']
Do you have a use for it? I understand music notation but can't read it at any speed, and it doesn't particularly bother me.

If you basically 'get the idea', maybe dive in and use it for what you want to use it for,
and if you have no use for it... don't bother?
[/quote]

Was thinking similar as im only usually recording chill out stuff with a few chords but an opportunity came up for a jam with a clever drummer i know from years ago and i wanted to try some more interesting chords out. Food for thought thanks.

[topo morto]

I guess you can divide music theory into a number of areas -

- science (acoustics and psychoacoustics)
- cultural knowledge, like 'a minor chord sounds sad' (to most people)
- terminology
- notation
- 'recipes' for writing and playing music in certain styles
- (probably more I can't think of)

As I said, my music reading is bad, but I'm happy doing the interesting chords bit... I pretty much use numbers and shapes, rather than note names or dots, to think of scale degrees, and use tab if I need to write anything down. I reckon I can learn 'recipes' for different styles OK without bothering with the dots.

I [i]used[/i] to read notation OK - it's just a skill I lost cos I never used it.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='wal4string' timestamp='1321479161' post='1439788']
There is no great secret to learning the notes on a fretboard. Its just a case of remembering a few simple facts, 1. The notes E and F are always a fret apart [a semitone] and B and C also. 2. A sharp [#] raises the note and a flat [b] lowers a note. 3. A sharp note also has a flat equivilant which is infact the same note.ie. an F# is the same as a Gb. There are only 12 note names. Often students find this simple fact hard to grasp, not through stupidity but because they beleived it was far more complicated. With this in mind and remembering fact 1. if you play an open E [bottom and thickest string] and then play a note on the first fret, this is an F. On the second fret this is an F# or a Gb. The note on the third fret is a G. The note on the fourth fret is a G# or an Ab. On the 5th fret is an A, which is the same note as your 3rd string. Still remebering fact one you can carry on a note per fret up to the twelve fret which is the same note as the open string only an octave higher.If all this still seems complicated then you need to put your logical thinking hat on. The trick is to realise that the higher up the fret board you go past the 4th fret more than one of the exact same note and pitch is available. For example the note on the twelve fret of the E string, an E is exactly the same note and pitch as the note on the 7th fret of the A string plus on the 2nd fret of the D string. How do you remember where all these notes are? Practice is a plus, but, lets say you are use to playing a tweve bar blues in E starting on the 2nd fret of the D string, the first 4 bars can be played without having to change position but when it comes to playing the next 2 sections for the A and B chord then you have a big shift in position. But if the whole piece is played starting on the 7th fret of the A string then only a two fret shift is needed to play the B section. All this is a lot harder to explain than actually play but I hope this helps. Being able to read music will make playing any song so much more enjoyable. If you don't and are content to just dive in to any musical situation so be it but you will no doubt limit yourself to a narrow field and genre which, at the end of the day most likely will limit any work offers.
[/quote]

Chr*st on a bike! I never realised it was this complicated.

There are 4 strings with 12 notes on each (After 11th fret, they repeat). That's 44 things to remenber (55 or 66 on 5 or six string basses). If you can remember the lyrics to the first section of Queens 'Bohemian Rhapsody' (up to 'doesn't really matter to me, to me...')that is 57 things. I bet you know all the words so that's about 379 and, what's more, you probably never sat down to 'learn' them! You are making a mountain out of a molehile.

Practise more.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='topo morto' timestamp='1321481557' post='1439833']
I guess you can divide music theory into a number of areas -

- science (acoustics and psychoacoustics)
- cultural knowledge, like 'a minor chord sounds sad' (to most people)
- terminology
- notation
- 'recipes' for writing and playing music in certain styles
- (probably more I can't think of)

[/quote]

I have been looking at this stuff fairly diligently for over 30 years and still have so much to learn. Don't expect it to be handed to you on a plate. If you want to thump away behind the local blues hero, then you can do so without any real investment but, if you have any ambitions to be a rounded musician, start thinking, reading, listening, learning. The sooner you start (and you already have), the sooner you will start seeing incremental progress. No epiphanies. No lights on the road to Damascus. Just one step at a time. You will have plateaus and moments of accelerated learning; its all part of the process. Its a journey not a destination. Enjoy it.

When you have learned it all, let us know.

[wal4string]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1321525398' post='1440103']
I have been looking at this stuff fairly diligently for over 30 years and still have so much to learn. Don't expect it to be handed to you on a plate. If you want to thump away behind the local blues hero, then you can do so without any real investment but, if you have any ambitions to be a rounded musician, start thinking, reading, listening, learning. The sooner you start (and you already have), the sooner you will start seeing incremental progress. No epiphanies. No lights on the road to Damascus. Just one step at a time. You will have plateaus and moments of accelerated learning; its all part of the process. Its a journey not a destination. Enjoy it.

When you have learned it all, let us know.
[/quote]

Bilbo, it would seem as though you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say but then again your second sentence here agreed with me. Whatever. I have been playing for 40 years and as you rightly say still tons to learn, I have never tired of the learning process and if it wasn't for the fact that I began to read from day one I am certain that I would be a far lesser bass player.

[Bilbo]

My reponse wasn't to your post, mate, I just find it funny that sometime explanations can be more confusing than the actual problem. I had a mate who wrote an instruction book on how to wash your hands and it went to 400 pages (with illustrations ). Its only 4 strings. I can't believe people find it so hard to learn!.