alexclaber Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 (edited) I recently started the challenge of recording our first album and thought I might as well try to keep a blog of our trials and tribulations - even if no-one else is curious I can at least make sure I don't make the same mistakes next time! A bit of background: Having pretty much learnt to play in my band at Uni and done some co-writing, I then spend the ensuing years attempting to put various bands together and learning how to write songs on my own, then gave up on finding vocalists and starting trying to sing myself, found this guitarist, found a drummer and keyboardist, did one gig then they headed off to Uni, then found a new drummer and saxophonist, did a few gigs, kept writing material, and here we are. After debating various technological solutions I settled on a Tascam 2488 for tracking and hopefully all the mixing. I won't be surprised if I have to master on the computer, just to get a competitively loud mix without squishing all the life out of it. The original plan was to take the 2488 down to the rehearsal studio, stick mics in the relevant places, DI the bass and lay everything down as a band - we're a groove oriented outfit and we're all part of the rhythm section so it would be nice to get all that interaction onto tape. However, this proved futile as although we could load in, get set up and ready to roll quickly enough, all the sound engineering completely took me out of my groove-space. Not good. So, onto Plan be: My drummer practises in his loft and he thought there'd be space in there for me too, so we decided to try laying down the bass and drums together and then overdub the rest. Step 1 - Set-Up: Lots of rearranging of things to get the drum kit in a decent spot. Hoiked one of my Acmes up there to live in the corner for bass monitoring, tilted up slightly on Auralex PlatFoam. Bill has an excess of drums - we've gone for his trusty old Pearl Export which has fairly small shells - 4 piece - and is tuned quite low, along with a fairly shallow high tuned snare. On the cymbal front a nice dark ride, and a couple of crashes, both quite dry, one higher pitched, the other halfway between that and the ride. Quite dry hihats too - Bill prefers cheaper cymbals generally because they're less loud and have less sustain. I only recently started doing stereo drum miking (never had the track count in the past) and one thing that I've failed to achieve so far is a coherent mix once the overheads are panned. Previously I've used spaced overheads so this time we decided to use X-Y crossed overheads (some cheapish small diaphragm condensers), a dynamic mic on the snare (from a Shure drum mic set), and the trusty D112 on the kick (about a foot away from the resonant head - which had a big hole in the centre anyway). I took my monitors along too and stuck them on top of his hifi speakers. Set the levels, did a test record. Played back. Sounded great! Panned the overheads - still great. A miracle! To be continued... Alex P.S. Something is messing with my post - it should not say 'Plan be' above, it should say the obvious. Is there some evil (and dimwitted) spell checker interfering? Aaarghhh... Edited June 12, 2007 by alexclaber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Should be an unteresting read - looking forward to hearing what happens! ped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 12, 2007 Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 Doh! We have a recording sub-forum... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngombe Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 [quote name='ped' post='16581' date='Jun 12 2007, 11:00 PM']Should be an interesting read - looking forward to hearing what happens! ped[/quote] +me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 Step 2 - First attempt at bass & drums: About a week later I took my bass and rack along to Bill's, plugged into my cab, DI'd into the multitracker, checked the levels and we were ready to go. We'd planned on trying tracking with headphones to avoid bleed from the bass causing snare rattles but we had a logistical problem (leads too short!) so we went without. Checked how badly the snare was rattling and then realised that it was all the other snare drums in surrounding cupboards! Got them damped, then got the metronome out (we spent the previous band practice arguing about tempos) so we'd have an agreed starting tempo, though we weren't going to record to a click. Of all the songs I've written that we have learnt as a band we'd selected our favourite four for an initial EP, so we started on those first. Did one take of Single Mother (an eccentric reggae-ish tune) which went fairly well considering Bill and I have hardly played together without the rest of the band. I sang along a bit to help us not get lost. Listened back and it sounded ok, no glaring mistakes and the right kind of feel. We decided to then try another song, Lend Us A Fiver (a faster shuffle). Blagged our way through that - a little messy but it shouldn't sound pristine, wouldn't suit it. Bill hit the overheads when he got carried away! Next song, Time Will Tell (a more conventional rock song, quite fast with a motown beat on the intro). We blasted through this pretty well - my endurance started flagging at one point, due to having my amp quiet to avoid bleed and thus plucking harder in response. Both of us were doubting we'd nail the ending as we changed it quite recently but fortunately we were on the ball. Then we tried Funeral Song (which is really two songs in one, a funk number followed by a 12/8 blues). We decided to split it into the two parts due to the strange tempo/feel change in the segué. We started Pt.1 and crashed in the first verse when I got confused! First full take went pretty well, apart from the ending which was a mess (it ends on a weird syncopation). So we practised the ending a bit and then tried Pt.2 which went down in one go. Revisited Pt.1 and got the ending right. So, that's four (or five depending on your perspective) songs down in about ninety minutes. As it sounded pretty good to be going on with, I decided to take the multitracker home to add scratch vocals and send on to the guitarist for his parts. When we're tracking the rest of the album we'll have another go at these songs to see if we do them better. To be continued... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 Step 3 - Laying down scratch vocals: Full of the joys of spring (or is it summer now) I laid down some very rough vocals that night. Gradually getting the hang of working the 2488, it's quite powerful piece of kit. Did two takes on the first song, one on all the others. Whilst I'm waiting for the guitarist to pick it up have also fiddled a bit with EQ and compression. No luck with sussing out the compression yet whilst with the EQ I've cut out the highs and lows on the snare close mic and cut out the highs and added a LF peak on the kick mic (to try and stop those mics messing with the stereo picture from the overheads). Rolled off some highs on the bass and added a little more bottom. (The EQ is quite nice, LF and HF shelving with variable frequency and plus single wide ranging fully parametric). Also worked out how to do mixdowns and burn to CD, so I've done that, had a listen on the home hi-fi (the monitors are still at Bill's) and ripped it to iTunes so I can upload the tracks. So here's the current state of affairs - bass, drums and scratch vocals, minimal EQ, no compression, some vocal reverb: [url="http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%20Session%20Cuts/01%20Lend%20Us%20A%20Fiver.m4a"]http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%...20A%20Fiver.m4a[/url] [url="http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%20Session%20Cuts/02%20Single%20Mother.m4a"]http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%...le%20Mother.m4a[/url] [url="http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%20Session%20Cuts/03%20Time%20Will%20Tell.m4a"]http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%...Will%20Tell.m4a[/url] [url="http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%20Session%20Cuts/04%20Funeral%20Song%20Pt.1.m4a"]http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%...Song%20Pt.1.m4a[/url] [url="http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%20Session%20Cuts/05%20Funeral%20Song%20Pt.2.m4a"]http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Demo%20EP%...Song%20Pt.2.m4a[/url] Listening back on speakers it's obvious that there are some issues with panning too wide and the kick EQ on some tracks. Vibe ain't bad though. (The tracks are iTunes AAC format, not MP3 btw). Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsymoth Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I'll certainly be reading it - maybe just looking for affirmation that the initial difficulties I had weren't just me. there is a lot to doing this "right", and to a certain extent I have focused on just getting it done. things like mic placement that I was pretty picky about - except after having to move em for each track, and dealing with a small recording room, decided on positions that would allow me to just rotate them - and not be tripping or banging my head in em. eq? don't touch it. compression? don't touch it. I run a nice little recording set up like it's a cassette deck, and try to concentrate on what is being recorded, rather than how. and even then there is a lot to figure out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Interesting thread Alex - any plans to go down the pro tools route eventually? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='16955' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:28 PM']Interesting thread Alex - any plans to go down the pro tools route eventually?[/quote] Sadly not, this is a very low budget affair! But I think with a bit of cunning and lateral thinking we should be able to come up with a release quality product, subject to better vocals than some of these somewhat horrific guide tracks... gypsymoth, how did you get a loud enough master without using compression? Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 A giant photo of Bill showing off Icky Thump in our rhythm section tracking domain: Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsymoth Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I play really loud. my primary guitar mic (also the upper tom mic) is often set to zero when recording - and it still sometimes clips a bit. I don't use close micing either, aside from leaving it in the tom location, I usually have to raise it to avoid the red. same thing with the other mics, change the input volume to accomodate how close it sits to how loud a source. it is a pain re-adjusting volumes when I want to redo a track - and initially I thought I would do all tunes on each instrument, then do the next instrument, and I may return to that approach. switching instruments makes my poor little fingers confused (let's see, light action guitar or 8 string bass touch). I don't expect you will have to make so many compromises. and to a large extent, if the music is worth listening to, none of these issues are overwhelmingly important. unless your goal is to make a name as a producer/engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redroque Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 always pick up the interesting ones late! Re drums and coherent kit sound. I can recommend the current Sound on Sound for a good article on this - in very brief - use the over heads first and then bring up the close mikes to support them as required. Don't over pan. You can get an online sub for SOS instead of the mag - cheaper and gives you access to thier considerable database of reviews and more importantly, how to's. Not an SOS contributor - just a subscriber! It does increase any GAS problems tho'. But hell, your'e recording now so you can just throw money away for the next x many years. The Tascam is just the start...... max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 [quote name='redroque' post='17423' date='Jun 14 2007, 10:48 AM']always pick up the interesting ones late! Re drums and coherent kit sound. I can recommend the current Sound on Sound for a good article on this - in very brief - use the over heads first and then bring up the close mikes to support them as required. Don't over pan.[/quote] I shall check that out! I bought an issue about recording bass recently - though I don't know why I bothered as I've pretty much nailed getting my sound down on tape, it's the drums that are the battle. The problem I'd had with spaced overheads was that even with the close mics all the way down as soon as you got a reasonable width of panning the two images diverged so you'd hear the hihat in two places, the snare in two, etc. The X-Y approach seems far more coherent. [quote name='redroque' post='17423' date='Jun 14 2007, 10:48 AM']You can get an online sub for SOS instead of the mag - cheaper and gives you access to thier considerable database of reviews and more importantly, how to's. Not an SOS contributor - just a subscriber! It does increase any GAS problems tho'. But hell, your'e recording now so you can just throw money away for the next x many years. The Tascam is just the start...... max[/quote] My flatmate at Uni had a subscription so I've had about 4 years of it, plus I read a lot of the older articles when they're released online. Such an awesome magazine but it does promote terrible GAS! I used to record on a Tascam 424 MkII which worked surprisingly well for tracking a band and then we'd overdub vocals and master on the computer. I do like tape compression but reel to reel is just so expensive. I bought a Fostex MR-8HD last year which was cool (too stingy to buy the 2488) for tracking and then I did all the overdubs on the computer. With this definitive incarnation of The Reluctant I relented, sold the Fostex and bought the 2488. So pleased I did, it's an incredible piece of kit - 24 bit sound really makes a difference. Between Bill and I we have quite a lot of mics and I have a neat little TFPro preamp with a friendly optical compressor which works great for vocals. I'd like a good outboard compressor like the FMR RNC but I shall persevere with the ones in the 2488 - I'm thinking I can always bounce individual tracks back and forth with very subtle compression to build up greater compression whilst maintaining transparency (like the RNC does). Just listening to the mixes on the hi-fi whilst doing some admin - feeling quite positive. Particularly pleased with the width of the groove on Funeral Song Pt.1 - anyone else liking the drum fill before the final verse? Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redroque Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Sounding good - cymbals have come out well - the toms get a bit lost ( in the last track - just heard that!) in the middle - compress the toms as a sub group and raise the level a bit. Can you treat the snare independently of the rest of the track - slightly different level of reverb or maybe some delay (remember I'm from the 80's!). Not all compression is bad either. I love optical compressors on drums (the Jo Meek/ted fletcher units). I tend to have a stereo unit connect to the drum subgroup permanently! The valve based modelled ones sound great on bass and drums (the real ones sound even better!) The FNR is a nice unit. EQ is a subjective affair but you do need to use it to give each instrument it's own space. If you don't then the track will sound cluttered and muddy. Remember, the track's the important thing not the ego of a particular band member. An instrument may sound bad in isolation, but as long as it sits well within the context of the track, it's the right sound. tho' convincing the guitarist of that isn't always easy! Keep up the good work and don't forget to enjoy it! max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappygarry Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Nice one. What a brilliant thread. Got a new project that would be cool to post up about. As max says, this is the beginning of a long and painfull journey or spending. After the FMR (which is awesome) you will startlusting for an 1176 (dont google it, you will want one) and then onwards. Keep the updates coming G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 [quote name='redroque' post='17905' date='Jun 14 2007, 10:07 PM']Sounding good - cymbals have come out well - the toms get a bit lost ( in the last track - just heard that!) in the middle - compress the toms as a sub group and raise the level a bit.[/quote] Sadly the toms are solely through the overheads so I have very little control of them. However I shall flatten the EQ on the kick mic and see if that brings some more tom sound out. [quote name='redroque' post='17905' date='Jun 14 2007, 10:07 PM']Can you treat the snare independently of the rest of the track - slightly different level of reverb or maybe some delay (remember I'm from the 80's!).[/quote] Actually I'm rather pleased with that snare sound, it's quite unusual, quite a strong reggae leaning with that ring. And despite growing up in the '80s my music collection from that decade is a tenth of that from the previous decade... [quote name='redroque' post='17905' date='Jun 14 2007, 10:07 PM']Not all compression is bad either. I love optical compressors on drums (the Jo Meek/ted fletcher units). I tend to have a stereo unit connect to the drum subgroup permanently! The valve based modelled ones sound great on bass and drums (the real ones sound even better!)[/quote] I agree, it's just a challenge to work, especially with the eccentric compression on the 2488. I shall get there. [quote name='redroque' post='17905' date='Jun 14 2007, 10:07 PM']An instrument may sound bad in isolation, but as long as it sits well within the context of the track, it's the right sound. tho' convincing the guitarist of that isn't always easy![/quote] Ours is a rare breed - he's recording using my pedals and the drummer's amp so you can see he's remarkably open minded! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redroque Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='19806' date='Jun 18 2007, 06:40 PM']Ours is a rare breed - he's recording using my pedals and the drummer's amp so you can see he's remarkably open minded![/quote] rare indeed - you'd better keep him hidden otherwise bands everywhere will try to poach him! max (had a bit of trouble with axe men!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='16831' date='Jun 13 2007, 01:08 PM']Listening back on speakers it's obvious that there are some issues with panning too wide[/quote] I don't think it was panned too far wide, just too much to the left, maybe u should move the right one in a bit closer next time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 24, 2007 Author Share Posted June 24, 2007 [quote name='EdwardHimself' post='20752' date='Jun 20 2007, 01:42 PM']I don't think it was panned too far wide, just too much to the left, maybe u should move the right one in a bit closer next time?[/quote] Ah, I'm glad it wasn't just me hearing that! The 2488 is currently with our guitarist as he puts his parts on. Will update once it's back... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 Guitarist has finally put most of his parts on! Had a brief listen during rehearsal last night and it sounded good. Has gone straight to saxophonist for him to do his things. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 Saxophonist has almost finished his parts. I haven't heard it yet but he's multitracked some parts so he has the sax playing in two octaves (live he just plays the higher part), plus sometimes an additional third part playing the fifth or third. Should sound like a small horn section has just appeared! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsymoth Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I must be waaay more reluctant. I do one guitar track, one bass track, one drum track, one vocal track. muliple mics, but still a lot less to consider in the mix - and hopefully a lot less tweaking in the end. to date all I've worried about is relative volume levels, and that's been enough for my small mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 The multitracker is finally back with me! Now to add final vocals and mix... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Just going through the tracks to see where everything is - on the first song I've looked at there are four tracks of drums, one of bass, five of guitar, four of sax and two of backing vocals. Fortunately you never get all of them simultaneously! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Done some of the vocals this evening, getting my head round what's needed in terms of backing parts. Need to get my monitors back from my drummer's so I can hear it properly - am not the greatest fan of headphones! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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