I want you to use a pick ???

[Chris2112]

If the band is an equal partnership, do what you want. It's your part, after all. If it's a paid gig or something, then use a pick. Always answer to the boss, unless you are the boss.

[Conan]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1321636234' post='1441542']It did annoy me quite a bit as it questions my ability and i just feel that if they wanted a pick player they should have auditoned that fact and not taken a fingerstyle bassist.
Dave
[/quote]

Try not to think of it like that. Everyone has that certain "sound" in their head on a certain track. It's even worse when it's in a covers band scenario.

Yes, you are the bass player. But you are also a band member. How many times have you bitten your tongue at the way the singer phrases a particular line? Or the sound that the keyboard player selects? Of the volume of the guitarist?

In the same way, they might all have different ideas about what the bass should be playing or how it "should" sound. They are entitled to their opinions, but equally that doesn't make them right!

What's to be lost by giving the pick a try? At least it shows that they are listening to the bass part in the first place!!

I'm predominantly a fingers player, but in a cover band there are certain tracks that you need a pick for. IMO of course.

[gjones]

One word........................PHIL
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4nNv8K3vhk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4nNv8K3vhk&feature=related[/url]

[dc2009]

Despite playing in metal and rock bands, I've never once been asked to play with a pick. I think this might be because I really dig in with my fingers and play with a lot of attack (for the aggressive parts obviously), perhaps go for an attack/eq pedal for the bits where the keyboardist/band thinks the bass needs a bit more attack? Or just attack the strings more yourself?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1321639559' post='1441587']
One word........................PHIL
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4nNv8K3vhk&feature=related[/media]
[/quote]

+1 that would sound sh*t played with fingers, it just would

[WalMan]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1321634721' post='1441515']
[size=4][font=Arial][color=#222222][color=#222222][font=Arial]Is the keyboard player giving an order or is he giving an opinion? [/font][/color][/color][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=Arial][color=#222222][color=#222222][font=Arial]I have not had this in a band before, but would probably say lump it or fire me! I would get into some aggressive EQing before I gave up the fight though. What gear are you using?[/font][/color][/color][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=Arial][color=#222222][color=#222222][font=Arial]I'm sure I've seen Roger Glover, Nick Simper and many of the early rock players using finger style. What about "the Hulk" in Metallica? He doesn’t use a pick! [/font][/color][/color][/font][/size]

[/quote]
[quote name='spongebob' timestamp='1321635112' post='1441527']
When I played some fingerstyle in my covers band this week instead of my normal pick, I asked the band at the end what they thought about the change in tone, and how it sounded within the group.

All four replied the same - 'didn't realise you were doing anything different'!

I'd go with the school of thought that the bass is your business - do what sounds good, and what you feel comfy doing.
[/quote]
But why is it necessary to make a big deal. You are a GROUP working towards a common goal surely. Adopting a "like it or lump it" attitude helps no one. Where does it leave you when the keyboard player chooses an inappropriate patch or style for a number and you want to say "are you sure about that?" other than painted into a corner.

As before try it both ways and see if they can actually tell the difference

[Nibody]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1321636994' post='1441555']
Billy Sheehan has been mentioned, you could point them in the direction of Geezer Butler? Steve Harris? Pete Way? Do they lack attack? I find it odd that they chose you to play bass for them and now want you to play differently.

FWIW I play rock (and everything else) with a pick.
[/quote]

Have to agree with that.

[JakeBrownBass]

I'd say use the right technique for the gig. Does the song need a pick, use a pick. Does it need fingers, use fingers. Does it need Slap. use slap. Is it originally a synth line, use a synth....etc....

If you [i]can[/i] do it, do it.

If not, do your best with what you have.

[BottomE]

Its a bit strange that you got the gig, i assume down to your playing, and they ask you to change style

That said, i did a song recently and the guitartist suggested using a pick. He was right it sounded a lot better. Give it a go. You might like it

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

If a keyboard player suggested I use a pick I'd suggest he wore mittens. Blummin' cheek. Tell him to 'eff off.

[4-string-thing]

I'd be tempted to tell the keyboard player that for classic rock, his digital keyboards sound crap and he should go and buy a Hammond B3, a Leslie cabinet and a large van! Oh, and find a roadie....

But, if you find on some songs you really do need a bit more of a pick type sound, you could use the nail on your index finger. Works for me.

[mrtcat]

It would gall me a little for a keys player to tell me what to do but if the pick sounds better just be magnanimous. That way when there's somwthing about the keys/structure/drums/vox/etc you don't like you have every right to offer an opinion and have it taken seriously. If they ignore you then at least you know how it works and can work out your options from there. Give n take and all that....

[peteb]

It seems to me that the fashion for playing with a pick or fingers alternates in classic rock – pick in the 80s, then fingers and now pick again. Certainly all the recent bass players in bands like Whitesnake seem to mainly use a pick (Marco Mendoza, Uriah Duffy, etc) even if they are predominately finger players in other bands! I think that it is likely that your keyboard player has picked up on that. TBH, for the life of me I don’t see why it is so important, using fingers or a pick is only part of your sonic imprint and can easily be compensated for by many other factors! If you can play fast enough to nail a blast beat and can get a good solid sound when you play eighths I don’t see why it should make any difference if you play with your fingers or with a pick!

I was persuaded by a band leader to change from fingers to pick back in the 80s and it was the worst musical decision I ever made! Unfortunately, I was not as strong a player with a pick and I spent what was probably the most important part of my musical career (such as it was) not playing to my full potential. After a few years I went back to playing with my fingers and was a much better player almost instantly!

There is a technique that you can use to get the best of both worlds and get the attack of playing with a pick whilst using your fingers. This is something that I have been doing for years and was most gratified to find that that it was a technique that Bryan Beller developed after missing out on the Steve Vai gig first time round, mainly because he didn’t play with a pick!

Basically, it involves striking across the strings at a bit of an angle to get a ‘chime’ that sounds a bit like a pick. It may seem that you are just digging in more but you are not necessarily playing any harder, it is more about the the action and angle that you attack the string! BB describes it much better than I can on various clips on the net, including an interview with Janek Gwizdala that Doddy posted a while ago on here and I think on the Bass Player magazine website as well. Billy Sheehan uses a similar approach when he plays his more basic bass lines and if it’s good enough for someone as anal as Vai (who now uses Beller as his first call bass player) and for King Billy, then it certainly should be good enough for your keyboard player!

Edited November 19, 2011 by peteb

[xgsjx]

I don't think I can add much to what's been said, other than listen to the song you're playing & decide what's gonna sound best for it.
A good bass player will happily switch how he plays, even mid song.
I mainly play with fingers & it's what I prefer, but we have a couple of songs that just need the pick & even one with some slapping (though that's usually the guitarist for noodling during a slow vocal part).

[peteb]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1321665951' post='1441897']
I don't think I can add much to what's been said, other than listen to the song you're playing & decide what's gonna sound best for it.
A good bass player will happily switch how he plays, even mid song.
I mainly play with fingers & it's what I prefer, but we have a couple of songs that just need the pick & even one with some slapping (though that's usually the guitarist for noodling during a slow vocal part).
[/quote]
But by your definition, is Bryan Beller is not a good bass player then??

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1321642481' post='1441627']
Did you think about growing a bit of length onto your fingernails so they catch the string a little?
[/quote]

I went through that phase a few yrs back where i grew my fingernails just enough to be able to angle my fingers and get best of both sounds from skin and nail depending on what was required.
I'm looking at that technique again and it seems to work better for me. Tried a pick again and i just can't get into the feel of the songs. Maybe a little more time and patience but not comfortable for me.
This is probably my favoured option and if that doesn't work i will give the pick another go.
Perhaps a compromise might be the end up.

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1321664096' post='1441887']

Basically, it involves striking across the strings at a bit of an angle to get a ‘chime’ that sounds a bit like a pick. It may seem that you are just digging in more but you are not necessarily playing any harder, it is more about the the action and angle that you attack the string! BB describes it much better than I can on various clips on the net, including an interview with Janek Gwizdala that Doddy posted a while ago on here and I think on the Bass Player magazine website as well. Billy Sheehan uses a similar approach when he plays his more basic bass lines and if it’s good enough for someone as anal as Vai (who now uses Beller as his first call bass player) and for King Billy, then it certainly should be good enough for your keyboard player!
[/quote]

Yep i think i know what you are talking about with this technique. Oddly enough its something i've done for many yrs when jamming with friends or generally just fooling around. I have used it at rehearsals while waiting on others setting up their own gear. (bass is plug and play so pretty quick) Band hadn't heard that technique before and certainly took notice of it. I also find this technique easy to use and change to and fro.
I'll get another look at Bryan Beller on youtube for more detail but sure it sounds same principle.

I'm gonna try adapting my finger techniques first but tend to agree with majority on BC that i should play or adapt to what makes the song sound best and at the end of the day i guess the band actually taking notice of the bass sound is more than most bass players get from their bands.
To complicate things even more the guitarist called me last night and now thinks my sound is by far one of the best he's played with and has more than enough attack for what we are doing. He stated that during the audition the one thing that stood out with my style was the amount of attack and punch i had from fingerstyle. They hadn't heard this from other fingerstyle players they auditioned or played with.
My sound has always been more mid to hi mid with similarities to John Entwhistle in style and sound i guess.
I'm using my jazz with GB streamliner and berg 12's so its not the sharpest bass for attack.

WHAT IS A BASSIST SUPPOSED TO DO.

I'm decided that i will try whatever it takes to nail this.

Thanks for advice guys - its been well worthwhile for me getting some feedback from others who have experienced similar issues.

Cheers
Dave

[xgsjx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1321666530' post='1441899']
But by your definition, is Bryan Beller is not a good bass player then??
[/quote]
Far from it. He learned his mistake from losing the 1st Vai gig & managed to adapt to get the right sounds needed.
He can now happily switch from getting a rounded bass tone (that's associated with fingerstyle) to a more sharp aggressive tone very easily just by how he plays.
I wasn't disagreeing with your advice given, more like the opposite. A bassist should always know that his sound/style affects the groove of the song & he should be willing to use whatever technique he can to make sure it fits. Whether that means adapting his fingerstyle like Beller does or uses a pick or some other object makes no difference.

See when you say Beller "developed" that technique, do you mean he actually came up with it or just learned how to do it?
I grew up listening to Sheehan in the late 80s with Talas & he had a very aggressive tone back then.

[BigRedX]

Choosing between fingers and pick is all down to sound, feel and the ability of the bassist. I choose what ever I (and the band) thinks sounds best for each song. Also IME EQ'ing is not a substitute for a different technique. It might get you close enough in a gigging situation, but it will never be an exact replacement.

If you do choose to experiment further with a pick there are plenty of things that you need to consider. Firstly the material and thickness of a pick make a difference to the sound. Go to your local music shop and buy a selection to try out at rehearsals. Remember that what sounds good when you are playing by yourself may not work with the full band. IME harder picks sound great on their own but the attack (which is what you are after) can blend in too much with the guitar sound in a band setting which defeats the object.

Also you need to consider up-strokes and down strokes. An all down-stroke pattern has a completely different feel to alternating up- and down-strokes. You need to find the combination that drives the song along in the right fashion.

Finally some of the attitudes on this thread are rather closed-minded and seem to exhibit all the bad things I see in complaints about "guitards". There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism and suggestions. In a band context it's all about listening to the song and making it sound as good as possible. It may be that an EQ change will do the trick, but it's good that someone else is listening and has noticed that there could be an element missing to the tone that would improve the overall sound of the song. A band is all about individual musicians locking together to produce something that is greater than the basic sum of their parts. If you can't see that then you are probably best off sticking to your bedroom.

[JTUK]

I'd laugh. And if he was being serious, I'd ignore him.

As has been said..is it a directive or an opnion? Neither would be worth anything to me anyway
and why did they ask you to join if this was going to be an issue.?
Laugh it off.

Or tell him his keyboard sounds leave a lot to be desired and he should invest in some new EXEPNSIVE stuff.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I wouldn't be told what technique to use.

However, I would want to know that I could if I wanted to.

I used to be a plec naysayer and would never consider it.

Then I discovered Bobby Vega

Fingerstyle, Slap, Plec, Fretless, he covers them all.
He's the player I would aspire to be.

Funk played with a plec, how cool is that.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx2lza1Rb0U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx2lza1Rb0U[/url]

[peteb]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1321693654' post='1441947']
Far from it. He learned his mistake from losing the 1st Vai gig & managed to adapt to get the right sounds needed.
He can now happily switch from getting a rounded bass tone (that's associated with fingerstyle) to a more sharp aggressive tone very easily just by how he plays.
I wasn't disagreeing with your advice given, more like the opposite. A bassist should always know that his sound/style affects the groove of the song & he should be willing to use whatever technique he can to make sure it fits. Whether that means adapting his fingerstyle like Beller does or uses a pick or some other object makes no difference.

See when you say Beller "developed" that technique, do you mean he actually came up with it or just learned how to do it?
I grew up listening to Sheehan in the late 80s with Talas & he had a very aggressive tone back then.
[/quote]
I don't think that Beller invented this technique any more than I did, he just started playing like that to approximate the sound of playing with a pick. BS (and others) had been playing like that for years.

To the OP - the band picked you as they liked your playing and your tone. The rest of the band seem to think that you sound great so I wouldn't drastically alter how you play just to please a keys player who was probably just wondering out loud what you would sound like with a pick!

Edited November 19, 2011 by peteb

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1321632734' post='1441479']
Any thoughts on how to respond [/quote]
The practical aspects are one thing. There is also the emotional component. I suppose it all depends how he made the suggestion and whether you generally consider his opinion worthwhile. If he's a moron or inexperienced and he just turned round one day and said "Get a pick, f***nuts", then one's rejoinder might be tailored to fit.

OTOH, if he knows his stuff and put the suggestion politely then it's worth some consideration at least. Some have recommended the blanket refusal / throw a huff approach; one would hope this is more in the spirit of fun than a serious suggestion as to how to interact with bandmates.

I remember auditioning a drummer one time. I asked him if he could simplify a particular part and he went off on the most ferocious rant about 'knowing best'. When he wound down after about five minutes, I told him to pack his gear and leave.

Edited November 19, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Lozz196]

At next rehearsal, try each song, one with, one without, and see what the whole band reckon. The rest of the band may not like the bass suddenly cutting into their sonic space.

I`d bet said keyboardist was a guitarist. Their favourite word, when discussing bass, seems to be "definition".

"Definition" when spoken by a guitarist always means to me, no bass, full treble, and sound like I`m playing a lead guitar with no gain, an octave lower.

I`m a pick player by the way, but you can still have a great bass sound using a pick - it doesn`t need to be clicky and lacking low-end depth.

[JTUK]

Tell him, 'leave the bass to me Sunshine'... oh..and 'arse' comes into it as well..!! ha ha !!

[discreet]

Maybe it depends on whether you [i]want [/i]to play with a pick or not?
But I agree with previous posts, you don't have to sacrifice low-end if you use a pick.
That's what your amp EQ is for.

Edited November 19, 2011 by discreet