I want you to use a pick ???

[JTUK]

Hmmm... depends on the context of course..but new member gets told by keys to use a pick..??
I'd be thinking it has nothing whatsoever to do with sound... and IME, keys don't know much about sound anyway
with regards to bass.
You only have to hear what awful bass sounds some can come up with when doubling a bass apart anyway.
This guy may or may not be different

So, I don't know this guy...and it seems the OP only has 7 sessions with him..and this comes up...??
Did he not want you in the band from the audition...??? what is all this about..? Doesn't he like what you do..?
If he talking about one track or all tracks..???

On the face of a few posts, he sounds like a redneck to me...

I'd still be laughing at him...I think..!!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321708661' post='1442223']
... and IME, keys don't know much about sound anyway
[/quote]
Really?

Since there's no smilies in your post I'm assuming that your being serious here?

If so that's every bit as narrow-minded as the typical quotes that get attributed to "guitards".

IMO a good keyboard play is the other person in the band (along with the bassist) who is most likely to be listening to the band as a whole and not just concentrating on their own part and therefore I'd be listening to any suggestions they had to make regarding the overall band sound.

[JTUK]

And the other thing is...they have been looking for a bass player for 18 months....!!! WTF..!!
They settle on you and then decide that what they liked about you at audtion, they want to fundementally change plus put you under quite a bit of pressure with a new technique..??

If you have been fingerstyle for 30 odd years..you aren't going to get anywhere near comfortable with a pick anytime soon or quickly..by comparison.

If they are paying you decent dosh ..which I doubt as they wouldn't have been looking for so long..???

Its a compromise on everyones part..and I'd make the change if and when it suited the OP...or file the 'suggestion' under 'noted'...and dismissed.

Personally I get round these things by playing with the thumb with the nail as attack...but it isn't as effective and the part goes back to my normal style...

If you don't want to change then don't..they can take their chances getting someone else they can mould..or not.. !! Simple..!!

[JTUK]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1321709165' post='1442234']
Really?

Since there's no smilies in your post I'm assuming that your being serious here?

If so that's every bit as narrow-minded as the typical quotes that get attributed to "guitards".

IMO a good keyboard play is the other person in the band (along with the bassist) who is most likely to be listening to the band as a whole and not just concentrating on their own part and therefore I'd be listening to any suggestions they had to make regarding the overall band sound.
[/quote]

As I say..all in context. but yep..SERIOUS..!!

Some keys have great sounds and some don't, some piano players insist on playing a bass part with their left hand through the bass players scope... and they are piano players first and foremost...and haven't spent much time in the studio.

Depends how you rate that keyboard player.. depends how much credence I would give this or their suggestion.

[xgsjx]

Sorry JTUK, it's not down to the instrument they play, it's down to the person having a different taste (which might be crap taste) or just being a tw@.

I started life as a keys player, but love all sounds that are good from the lowest rumble to the highest squeal. Or maybe I was really a bassist before ever picking up a bass?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321709556' post='1442243']
As I say..all in context. but yep..SERIOUS..!!

Some keys have great sounds and some don't, some piano players insist on playing a bass part with their left hand through the bass players scope... [u][b]and they are piano players first and foremost...and haven't spent much time in the studio.[/b][/u]

Depends how you rate that keyboard player.. depends how much credence I would give this or their suggestion.
[/quote]
Are you sure you're serious?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321707382' post='1442205']
Tell him, 'leave the bass to me Sunshine'... oh..and 'arse' comes into it as well..!! ha ha !!
[/quote]
[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321708661' post='1442223']
Hmmm... depends on the context of course..but new member gets told by keys to use a pick..?? [b]I'd be thinking it has nothing whatsoever to do with sound[/b]... (snip)

So, I don't know this guy...and it seems the OP only has 7 sessions with him..and this comes up...?? [b]Did he not want you in the band from the audition[/b]...??? [b]what is all this about[/b]..? Doesn't he like what you do..?

... On the face of a few posts, he sounds like a redneck to me...

[/quote]
[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321709280' post='1442238']
... They settle on you and then decide that what they liked about you at audtion, they want to fundementally change plus [b]put you under quite a bit of pressure[/b] with a new technique..??

If you have been fingerstyle for 30 odd years..[b]you aren't going to get anywhere near comfortable [/b]with a pick anytime soon or quickly..by comparison.

[b]If they are paying you decent dosh ..which I doubt [/b]as they wouldn't have been looking for so long..???

If you don't want to change then don't..they can take their chances getting [b]someone else they can mould[/b]..or not.. !! Simple..!!
[/quote]

Perhaps I am misreading it, but it seems you're repeatedly trying to sow seeds of doubt and negativity. The old "He's got it in for you...I wouldn't let anyone talk to [i]me[/i] like that" and then stand back and watch the fun.

That or you're venting your own grudges onto someone else's circumstances in the guise of helpful advice. Neither is likely to help the OP resolve his situation.

Edited November 19, 2011 by skankdelvar

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1321697203' post='1442000']
Choosing between fingers and pick is all down to sound, feel and the ability of the bassist. I choose what ever I (and the band) thinks sounds best for each song. Also IME EQ'ing is not a substitute for a different technique. It might get you close enough in a gigging situation, but it will never be an exact replacement.

If you do choose to experiment further with a pick there are plenty of things that you need to consider. Firstly the material and thickness of a pick make a difference to the sound. Go to your local music shop and buy a selection to try out at rehearsals. Remember that what sounds good when you are playing by yourself may not work with the full band. IME harder picks sound great on their own but the attack (which is what you are after) can blend in too much with the guitar sound in a band setting which defeats the object.

Also you need to consider up-strokes and down strokes. An all down-stroke pattern has a completely different feel to alternating up- and down-strokes. You need to find the combination that drives the song along in the right fashion.

Finally some of the attitudes on this thread are rather closed-minded and seem to exhibit all the bad things I see in complaints about "guitards". There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism and suggestions. In a band context it's all about listening to the song and making it sound as good as possible. It may be that an EQ change will do the trick, but it's good that someone else is listening and has noticed that there could be an element missing to the tone that would improve the overall sound of the song. A band is all about individual musicians locking together to produce something that is greater than the basic sum of their parts. If you can't see that then you are probably best off sticking to your bedroom.
[/quote]
Despite what I said above about sticking to fingers if you want, I agree wholeheartedly with what BRX says.

[Gareth Hughes]

Been in this situation before - albeit for different reasons (band didn't like it when I sat down at rehearsals or to record). To me there are a few different sides to this but ultimately it boils down to:

1: If you're paying for my services I'll take your advice/follow your order, but I'll also be a little pissed that you're second guessing my experience of playing this instrument.

2: If I'm playing in this band for fun, then the moment someone starts telling me what to do and insists I set aside my way of doing things and follow theirs then it ceases to be fun for me.

In the scenarios I mentioned above, the sitting down at rehearsals/recording, I was asked to stand up because it fit 'THE VIBE'. Well, the relevant bit here is that it's about THEIR vibe and not about yours. The other members put their vibe before mine which resulted in them all being happy if I stood up and me being more than pissed off that we wasted time and effort arguing over something trivial.

Another way to look at it is this: great story from the LSO: Conductor says to the percussionist "I don't like that sound, try using the other mallets". Percussionist replies: "You tell me what sound you want and I'll tell you what mallets I'll use."

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

The keyboard player is not defining what problem he's trying to solve by suggesting that a totally different right hand technique is used. He could say "I think it needs more definition" or "More treble" or "don't do any right hand muting. Its like when a website designer shows a mockup and the client says something like "make the buttons blue" - why do they think they need the buttons blue? Is it to make them stand out more? Make them fit in with the colour scheme of a parent company's website? He's a Chelsea supporter? Or fan of the boyband ''blue? By communicating what result he hopes to achieve by suggesting a pick is used, there could be alternative and better solutions. For example if the problem is that the bass is not cutting through the mush, a better solution might be for the guitar &/or keys to adjust their sounds make a bit of space in the midrange for the bass's mids.

[JTUK]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1321710254' post='1442255']
Are you sure you're serious?
[/quote]

yep..two types of keyboard player, generally...one who was schooled on piano and the other who picked up a keyboard/synth type first.
You can generally tell by the technique they have or don't have..or where the bias is in their playing, how they like the keys to feel/be weighted. What direction they pursued...programming etc etc .. what they specialise in, Organ, etc etc ..WHOLE different style of playing. I would have some guys in on piano OR organ for example..and wouldn't let them touch the other type of keyboard

[JTUK]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1321710305' post='1442258']
Perhaps I am misreading it, but it seems you're repeatedly trying to sow seeds of doubt and negativity. The old "He's got it in for you...I wouldn't let anyone talk to [i]me[/i] like that" and then stand back and watch the fun.

That or you're venting your own grudges onto someone else's circumstances in the guise of helpful advice. Neither is likely to help the OP resolve his situation.
[/quote]

Not really. Just that the band were very happy to get the OP in..they weren't happy with anyone else in a long search..and now they are suggesting a new approach and more to the point, a whole new alien technique. The OP has put years into his playing style...and it will not be easy to get upto speed with a pick and feel comfortable applying new technique to old playing style.
It might even require reigning inn your old style to be able to cover lines with a pick... It has been a good few years for the OP with fingerstyle, IIRC.

If the band wanted/needed/had to have a pick player..they should have held out at the audition that this IS a requirement..but OP has joined and the goal posts have moved.

How have they made the OP feel..??

Know what you are good at... I could just about cover a hard rock band playing picked basslines..but would also expect to bring more of me along to the party. But if they wanted a P-bass and pick grind all night, every song..why get me in..there are plenty of players who do that..and would do it better and more gladly than I would.

They need to make up their minds what they want... and I would do so as well.
I wouldn't go for that gig, tbh if that was the deal... If someone says, plays Thin Lizzy all night, then get someone else in.

That isn't anything against Thin Lizzy as such..it is just a style not compatible to what I want to do.

So, I am reading this isn't the gig we auditioned..???

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321716079' post='1442345']
Not really. [/quote]
Fair enough.

Based on the info supplied, it's difficult to reach any firm conclusions. Perhaps the OP should crank his mids in the knowledge that no-one will notice anyway and they'll have forgotten all about picks by the next rhsal.

If it comes up again, my suggested diversionary response would be "Good point. But before I answer that, tell me, what are you going to wear for the next gig?"

Edited November 19, 2011 by skankdelvar

[The Dark Lord]

I think it depends, somewhat, on your status within the band. Maybe the keyboard player is helpfully suggesting that the mix of the band's sound would be better if the bass sound changed from what you're presently doing? But you could probably meet his requests in other ways - change of EQ etc. When I play in a band, I guess I have to accept all of the others' sounds. The guitarist will have a 'sound' that defines him in particular, the drummer will have a particular accent ...... and so will you. If you are a collective of like-minded individuals, then they should accept YOUR accent too ..... unless your sound is particularly poor and needs correction (which I doubt). So, you should take the keyboard guy's critique with interest, but not as a demand. You are a finger player and, if you like it that way, that's how you should stay.

However ......... if you have less of a standing in the band - like if there is an obvious band leader who calls the shots, or pays you ...... or if you've just joined a long-standing band ...... or if you are the obvious weakest link and they are all far better musicians than you ....... then you may NEED to change, lest you be turfed out of the band.

[JohnFitzgerald]

[indent=1]Agreed, regarding the sound within the context of the band.[/indent]

[indent=1]I've been a Jazz bass player for an awful long time now.[/indent]
[indent=1]I love that back pickup honk with the tone rolled off.[/indent]
[indent=1]Love both pickups on too, but with a more neck biased plucking position.[/indent]

[indent=1]I have just come to realise though, that within the context of the current band setup, a P bass sound would probably be more suitable for what I'm currently doing.[/indent]
[indent=1]That's why I'm currently erring toward grabbing a P bass of some sorts.[/indent]
[indent=1]Does one thing, but does it well.[/indent]

[indent=1]that would be my my own, self determined, way of fitting in.[/indent]

[BigRedX]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1321717072' post='1442357']
If it comes up again, my suggested diversionary response would be "Good point. But before I answer that, tell me, what are you going to wear for the next gig?"
[/quote]
IMO a far more important question than whether you should play with a pick or fingers.

[dmccombe7]

Some strong opinions on both sides but i'm not so sure the keys guy is having a pop.
For some background info he does also play gtr (outside of this band) and to be fair he does generally have a good ear for things which arem't quite perfect although i think maybe he's taking the "perfect" too far in this case.
He's the first person to notice a mistake (including his own) and does with everyone when it affects the reahearsal enough to stop the song to correct.
He doesn't do it with any malice but more of a "i think we need to work on that bit" which is probably the right thing to do.

Pick thing stemmed from a song which starts with keys and bass comes in next with a strong straight 8 to the bar rock bass intro.
"Knocking on your back door" by Deep Purple and you can hear the attack of the pick from Glover using downward pick strokes.
However if you listen to some live versions Glover plays differing styles and rythmic techniques at the start. (I'm going to see Deep Purple on Sat night and can check out)
Since mentioning this song he has commented that maybe some of the songs might benefit from a pick.

Personally i don't think live it will be noticed whether a pick or fingers used unless an audience of bass players. I've watched bands for years and can't say i've noticed whether the bassist uses a pick or not on a cover of someone who does especially in a rock band. Different perhaps a jazz band or where technique is more prominent and people are there to watch the individual musician's abilities rather than rock band doing covers where its more about the overall feel of the song than any individual excepting the usual gtr, drum & keys solos (which we don't actually do )

The band have been long time friends (circa 20-25yrs) playing in various bands together over the years and decided approx 2yrs ago to form a band to play material they prefer and like. Mixed background ie rock, club, soul & blues style bands but all love rock music.
I'm the new guy although they reckon i have more technical ability and therefore we appear to have a good balance of ability and experience across the band. Although i hadn't played in bands for 15yrs i still practiced at home to develop my techniques which i believe has paid off and came across when offered the position at the audition without question stating they couldn't believe how lucky they were to get someone as competent, likeable and with same interest in music. God the others must have been poor then.

Fact remains they did accept me as fingerstyle bassist and YES my ego was hit when suggestion was made , however we are a band and should work towards compromise and making sure the song is as close to perfect as poss.

I'm gonna try various minor tweaks at next reahearsal ie EQ, fingernail, pick for that one song intro and see where it goes.
Maybe they won't even notice.
If it persists then I'm probably going to walk away from as at that stage the enjoyment will have gone and no point for me. I'm doing this for sole purpose of enjoyment and not money.

Appreciate all the replies and its been interesting and rewarding so far and I've picked up a good few suggestions for getting round this hurdle.

If it ain't fun - don't do it.

Thanks
Dave

Edited November 20, 2011 by dmccombe7

[JTUK]

Accept that we probably made more of it than the actual situation itself..but it is all part of the banter..pick up a thread and run with it etc etc .

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321782688' post='1442891']
Accept that we probably made more of it than the actual situation itself..but it is all part of the banter..pick up a thread and run with it etc etc .
[/quote]

Spot on JTUK
I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread - so far !!!

thanks
Dave

[JTUK]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1321782970' post='1442893']
Spot on JTUK
I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread - so far !!!

thanks
Dave
[/quote]



I was asked to get a distortion sound for a track we were interested in... which I duly did and must admit never got the fuzz working to my satisfaction...
I am not big on effects in my signal chain myself..

...and low and behold, the band dropped the song. Thanks guys..that was £200 of pedals almost, that I now don't use.
Tbf..I can use one of them as a bail-out DI..but even so..???

[stingrayPete1977]

I dont get the comparisons guys, would I want to play in a band with a keys player that used one style of playing for every song we did? Or a guitarist that used the same amount of distortion for every song end to end. I dont think so and please dont let me have to watch this band where everyone plays their instrument in exactly the same way and with the same settings for every song! (Status Quo are exempt )

If no one had ever tried playing new/different techniques to an existing style of music we would not have any new music.


I posted this is the wrong thread just a minute ago

[BigRedX]

This^

I can remember going to see a friend's covers band in the early 90s. The two guitarists had obviously spent a good time with their effects replicating the guitar sounds of the songs they were playing. The bass player used the same extra-bright sound for every song without variation which pretty much negated the trouble the other members of the band had gone to.

[JTUK]

Band like that wouldn't interest me anyway.
If a gtr has ripped the whole lick/sound etc etc ... that is a complete and utter turnoff as far as I am concerned

I'd want some of the players personality and input to make the thing work. If they couldn't do that..that would be a minus as well.

That is another thread tho...

[BigRedX]

IMO you've missed the point.

If it's a covers band the punters will want to hear the songs as they remember them from the recordings. If you want to do "your own thing" just write some original songs and be done with it.

[dmccombe7]

Agree with comments about all songs sounding the same but its not exactly what was happening.
To get an exact replica of every song on the set list i would have to change between pick and fingerstyle, Rick, Precision or Jazz and in the case of a whitesnake song not sure which bass Neil Murray would have been using anything from Alembic, Fender, Aria, Kramer and not sure what he's using these days.
Point is that using the Jazz with good quality amp i still change tone and fingerstyle to suit a particular song. They don't all have same sound so that point kinda goes without question to be honest. That could be a quiet smooth neck pick up based tone or hard driving bridge based pick up tone.
Whatever can be achieved with the bass and style i am capable of.

I do agree with your point though and i do personally aim to achieve a sound close to the actual recording within reason.

I have my own style of playing and that allows me to "flavour" the song in my own personal way whether that is noticeable or not remains to be seen within the context of this current band. Was always noted in my previous bands and widely accepted within my social circle as being a bonus to the overall entertainment - or so i was told

Dave