I want you to use a pick ???

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1321787095' post='1442933']
IMO you've missed the point.

If it's a covers band the punters will want to hear the songs as they remember them from the recordings. If you want to do "your own thing" just write some original songs and be done with it.
[/quote]

I dont think it matters even if they are doing their own versions of songs, although from experience from a pub/function band 'as the original' always goes down better with the punters. That said if they are doing it their way Id still rather see all the band members mixing it up with various styles and techniques to keep me interested. An example is Hayseed dixie or whatever they are called, other peoples songs all done in a country style/feel is great at first but by the third or fourth song I would be off, use the same idea but do a pop classic in a rock style and then a country classic in a pop style followed by an indie classic in a country style etc etc and I think I would hang around to see what they are going to do next! also I would be impressed with their range of styles and abilities even if the tunes were not doing it for me. Does any of that make sense?

[Lozz196]

Being in a punk covers band, I know exactly what you mean. Trying to replicate every bass sound for every song would be difficult, cosidering we cover The Clash - Precision with flats - to The Jam - Rickenbacker with rounds - plus, how many of the audience would really notice a change in bass sound?

I`ve found that setting up a failry neutral tone works best when covering a range of different bands. Not too bassy, not too trebly, then stick in the pocket with the drums. Plus, we play the songs as us, with our sound, not trying to replicate the original recordings, which would be a nightmare.

[stingrayPete1977]

Its all in the fingers.......or pick

All joking apart Lozz has made me think a bit there, He classes himself as a punk genre covers band which IMO I would expect the whole set to be played with a pick but coming from indie covers bands that genre to me would include more styles and techniques including punk obviously, in fact if your doing a function type band all styles need to be catered for unless you are aiming at a punks only or biker weddings band of course. Im not knocking any type of music here but if your genre is expected to have a tighter set of boundries then your going to have a different view to someone who plays in bands with less. Would someone at an upright classical gig rock up with an Ampeg, P Bass and a pick? Horses for courses as we keep saying, Id rather see it mixed up and I bet Bigredx would fancy seeing a classical gig played in a crazy fashion? but most of the public want to see Joe Mceldry in a christmas jumper doing the same album last years X factor winner or loser did

Edited November 20, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[JTUK]

I can't see the point of going to see a poor version of the original...

I'd rather see players in bands with a degree of playing personality and their own spin. If they are good enough, they will get that across, if they aren't, then they wont.

Still..if your goal is to be popular..then sure, you'll likely rip the song note by note and miss the whole point of trying to play. IMO.

Why would I want to see a bunch of clone material bands

This type of thing is epitomised by local blues bands...round here
The rubbish ones just trot out verse and chorus of a blues song..and then the gtr goes off on one.
3 Songs into the set he has done the whole load and you are left with a evening of the same.
The better blues players have something to say, have variation and can make the song a piece of their own work.

One of the most popular bands round here rip stuff as close as the can get..or rather the gtr does..and everyone else piles in.
The songs may have the gtr part off pat but overall they miss the point of making the song work..even to the point of being oblivious it isn't working

Still, the punters are impressed.

It isn't for me and nor would I want to go down that route.
Sure, originals is an option as long as you have original ideas.

[dmccombe7]

From a personal point and placing myself in the audience (mentally rather than physically) i like to know that the guys playing are doing a good version of any song and if they can enhance that by making some minor changes yet still retain the feel of the original then i think that works well.
My problem is that when some bands go down that route and can't quite pull it off for whatever reason.

Slightly different for tribute bands where they are trying to replicate virtually every detail of a band both in terms of sound, equipment and in some cases even the looks. (I'm sure that topic has been well covered on BC already and if i remember right i had a bit of giggle by throwing in some deliberate little comments to get things going -

I would like to think that my own style of playing is sufficient to pull off a good version of any song. I'm not Geddy Lee but am capable of doing more than the basic bass part and therefore can add some "colour" to the bassline which appears to have a positive effect based on past experience.
Unless things have changed since I've been away then that should still work.

I had definately lost some of the edge, hardness and attack from when i was in my early 20's and have had to work at that again when i started looking at rock bands before joining my current band.
I spent the last 15 yrs getting away from that to develop a more relaxed fingerstyle using more than 2 fingers which in my part i simply enjoy the feel although not sure i could pull it off in a live format although haven't tried it apart from the odd jam with friends.

I've done originals and covers in the past and can see the debate from both sides although that is another thread i guess.

Dave

[JTUK]

To me..a cover or song to be covered is a template.

We will ask if the song will sit along aside the others, we'll go over what we want the song to do with regards to feel/groove or even attitude.
And then we decide if our spin works. I am not so concerned if the song is mainstream or a huge hit for someone..I'll pick it because it is a decent song.
This can be tricky as you can get into territory where a lot of punters aren't very adventurous musically but I'd say there are plenty of bands they can connect too anyway.
The other way you can look at it is that you can maybe educate a few people when they ask what songs/artists you do and point them towards bands like Starsailor or something.

So coming back to full circle and the OP... I personally have no interest in getting a certain sound because that is what is on the record.. It may well be something that you go for, or it may not, but it isn't a divine rule.

After people have spent a long time playing and cultivating their craft or style, it is rather lame to rip someone off to a tee... IMO.
But if that is the deal.. there you go...!!

We don't populate our set with many originals as yet..as time is the key issue, but I have no doubt it will come, if the band stays viable and we don't get bored first.

Boredom being the main driver in almost all of these things..!!

[mike257]

I'm stunned at some if the attitudes in this thread to be honest - the OP said that a band member suggested (not demanded!) that he try a pick for a few songs as the sound might suit it better, and the response for half the forum is as if the keys player in question had asked to spend the night with your mother!

Pick vs fingers is an endless debate, but different things work in a different context, sometimes even in different sections of the same song, but is it really beyond the pale for a fellow band member to suggest trying something slightly different to see if it works? The question could have been answered with three minutes of playing in the practice room.

I'm sure its not meant as an insult to or rejection of the OP's playing style. Have none of the naysayers hear ever suggested that the drummer try a different feel, or the guitarist use a different sound? Thrown up an idea for a vocal melody? I thought the idea was that everyone wants the band as a whole to sound its best, surely the easiest way to settle something like that is just try it and let your ears be the judge.

[4-string-thing]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1321807624' post='1443256']
I'm stunned at some if the attitudes in this thread to be honest - the OP said that a band member suggested (not demanded!) that he try a pick for a few songs as the sound might suit it better, and the response for half the forum is as if the keys player in question had asked to spend the night with your mother!

Pick vs fingers is an endless debate, but different things work in a different context, sometimes even in different sections of the same song, but is it really beyond the pale for a fellow band member to suggest trying something slightly different to see if it works? The question could have been answered with three minutes of playing in the practice room.

I'm sure its not meant as an insult to or rejection of the OP's playing style. Have none of the naysayers hear ever suggested that the drummer try a different feel, or the guitarist use a different sound? Thrown up an idea for a vocal melody? I thought the idea was that everyone wants the band as a whole to sound its best, surely the easiest way to settle something like that is just try it and let your ears be the judge.
[/quote]

The threads title is "I want you to use a pick" not "how about trying a pick" or "perhaps a pick might help with definition" How would you like it if someone in your band said " I want you to stop using that rig of yours and buy my mates ancient Carlsbro/Laney/Fal combo"?

[mike257]

[quote name='4-string-thing' timestamp='1321810238' post='1443304']


The threads title is "I want you to use a pick" not "how about trying a pick" or "perhaps a pick might help with definition" How would you like it if someone in your band said " I want you to stop using that rig of yours and buy my mates ancient Carlsbro/Laney/Fal combo"?
[/quote]

And the OP has clarified more than once that it was a suggestion, not a demand. Suggesting an alternative (and perfectly valid in this and many other contexts) technique is not remotely similar to asking someone to use a crappy rig. Surely everyone in a band is entitled to make a suggestion that they feel may benefit the overall sound?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1321779739' post='1442867']
Since mentioning this song he has commented that maybe some of the songs might benefit from a pick.[/quote]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1321807624' post='1443256']
I'm stunned at some if the attitudes in this thread to be honest - the OP said that a band member suggested (not demanded!) that he try a pick for a few songs as the sound might suit it better, and the response for half the forum is as if the keys player in question had asked to spend the night with your mother![/quote]

Quite. Jokey comments and thread title aside, there are a few instances of barely repressed fury. God knows why.

I think the OP is pretty well sorted on the issue, but it would perhaps be a shame to walk away without seeing how the pick thing works out or having a more candid discussion about it. Last time someone asked me to use my fingers for a particular song, I simply told them I couldn't play that fast without a pick so it wasn't going to happen. 'Key-doke, they said and that was the end of it

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1321811396' post='1443335']
And the OP has clarified more than once that it was a suggestion, not a demand. Suggesting an alternative (and perfectly valid in this and many other contexts) technique is not remotely similar to asking someone to use a crappy rig. Surely everyone in a band is entitled to make a suggestion that they feel may benefit the overall sound?
[/quote]

EXACTLY

[peteb]

An interesting thread but some strange posts! To me the keys player made a reasonable suggestion that I would have answered “but I don’t play with a pick”, and that would have been the end of it – I wouldn’t ask a drummer to play with an orthodox grip if he had spent years developing a technique based on playing with a matched grip!

As far as whether you should sound play covers exactly like the original, well it depends. Until recently I was playing in a classic rock covers band that used to do songs artists as varied as Van Halen, Ozzy, Hendrix, Pearl Jam, Deep Purple and the Osmonds! We used to play the VH and Ozzy covers pretty much note for note, the others we played in much the same style as the VH and Ozzy songs! It seemed to work pretty well and we always did well. Now me and the drummer find ourselves in a blues rock band, doing loads of gigs all over the place, playing covers that we have never even heard the original. Again, audiences seem to like it…..

I have spent many years developing a style and a tone so that I sound like me! I can adapt to an extent to fit a different musical situation, but only to an extent. People ask me to join bands because of the way I play, so why would they then ask me to play completely differently?

Edited November 20, 2011 by peteb

[stingrayPete1977]

It appears to me that some people see playing with or without a pick no different to playing a song slower or faster, quieter or louder which I really hope everyone in a band context would be prepared to try yet others see it more like being asked to play left handed if your a right handed player, it's been interesting to see how many people are saying "I play a P bass with a pick take me or leave me".

[dmccombe7]

I guess there's no "one answer fits all" to this query.

Based on what I've read on this thread and a few others along similar vein i've decided to put ego to one side and try a few other techniques to see if it works. Pick will be the last resort for me simply because i find it difficult to get comfortable with it. I'm much more comfortable using my thumb or index finger as a pick but it doesn't have the same edge as an actual pick.

Not sure how we drifted into the covers debate but there you go it happened. Again differing opinions on that one too.

Like most bands i guess if my suggestions to try various other techniques don't work then this will probably be forgotten in the realms of time.

Still it was certainly an interesting topic which obviously some people have very strong opinions on and i have respect for all who commented.
Hopefully my own decision to at least try and adapt something to accomodate will not offend or displease too many who made the effort to comment.

Thanks to all - its been fun.
All best
Dave

[peteb]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1321821964' post='1443530']
I guess there's no "one answer fits all" to this query.

Based on what I've read on this thread and a few others along similar vein i've decided to put ego to one side and try a few other techniques to see if it works. Pick will be the last resort for me simply because i find it difficult to get comfortable with it. I'm much more comfortable using my thumb or index finger as a pick but it doesn't have the same edge as an actual pick.

Not sure how we drifted into the covers debate but there you go it happened. Again differing opinions on that one too.

Like most bands i guess if my suggestions to try various other techniques don't work then this will probably be forgotten in the realms of time.

Still it was certainly an interesting topic which obviously some people have very strong opinions on and i have respect for all who commented.
Hopefully my own decision to at least try and adapt something to accomodate will not offend or displease too many who made the effort to comment.

Thanks to all - its been fun.
All best
Dave
[/quote]
I can see that you are tying to back away gracefully from this thread but it does raise an interesting issue beyond whether you play with fingers or a pick – the differing attitudes that people have to their role in a band (and I dare say to their day jobs and life in general)…!!

Edited November 20, 2011 by peteb

[JTUK]

It's only a covers band... and it's only banter.

At the end of the day, no one is getting fired over it... but if you cut threads short like that...we'd have even less threads to contribute to..
That is why I wouldn't have taken the suggestion itself seriously and we would have all moved on

The thread did high-light quite a few attitudes though.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1321824462' post='1443572']
I can see that you are tying to back away gracefully from this thread but it does raise an interesting issue beyond whether you play with fingers or a pick – the differing attitudes that people have to their role in a band (and I dare say to their day jobs and life in general)…!!
[/quote]
[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321874547' post='1443850']
It's only a covers band... and it's only banter.

At the end of the day, no one is getting fired over it... but if you cut threads short like that...we'd have even less threads to contribute to..
That is why I wouldn't have taken the suggestion itself seriously and we would have all moved on

The thread did high-light quite a few attitudes though.
[/quote]


I think with respect to backing away - yes i think there are times when the debating needs to stop and some action takes place. That's my own personal belief both in band situ and again in work or life in general. The big difference with bands and work is that bass is and always has been a hobby to me that i enjoy immensely, but it is a hobby, and therefore doesn't have the same importance or hold the same seriousness as a major work related issue or for that matter personal life decisions.
My current job involves taking daily decisions and actions involving many employees who work for me. On many occasions there comes a point where debate simply needs to stop and a plan put in place. I believe i've settled on a plan based on my own belief's and what was discussed within the thread. Hopefully that was a positive result where i was helped by fellow BC'ers to come to a constructive decision.

I don't have any issues with the debate running on and quite happy to keep reading as is often the case that hindsight can be a valuable asset and something new may come from on-going discussion.

I do worry that a debate can carry on until full circle and we run the risk of covering same ground twice. That was main reason for my previous post.



Dave

Edited November 21, 2011 by dmccombe7

[matski]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1321635524' post='1441534'] As bassists we're there to serve the track. That's it. [/quote]

Wise words... In my own band - where I am the composer of all the music - I alternate between playing with fingers and playing with a plectrum, depending on whatever fits the song the best.

[discreet]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1321635524' post='1441534']
As bassists we're there to serve the track.
[/quote]

Eh? I'm there for the free grub.

[Conan]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321874547' post='1443850']
It's only a covers band...
[/quote]

As opposed to....? If it was an originals band would the answers and suggestions be different? If so, why?

[sk8]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1321633572' post='1441495']


Valid point. I think a lot of it is my ego.
A lot of it is also the fact that I'm not sure if i would enjoy starting over again with a pick. Literally haven't used one since my first few yrs playing over 30yrs ago so its a major undertaking to relearn and not sure i would be as competent or comfortable.
Might give it a try though and put my ego to one side.

Dave
[/quote]

Is the reason more to do with your lack of confidence in using the pick as opposed to ego?

[TPTroll]

One suggestion...

Change your hand position, bring it so it's over the last few frets of the neck. The string tension is lower and you'll get the sound of more attack by the strings hitting the frets - a la John Entwistle.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1321882982' post='1443991']
As opposed to....? If it was an originals band would the answers and suggestions be different? If so, why?
[/quote]

No..not unless it was a career.

[Guest bassman7755]

I specialise in classic rock and have played in a purple tribute band and I play fingerstyle exclusively. Well *almost* exclusively .... a trick I use when a very pronounced attack is needed is to press my forefinger and thumb together and and pluck the string with the tip/nail of my finger near the bridge. IMO this actually sounds better, brighter and more dynamic, than using an actual pick.

The sort of occasions when I do this are conspicuous bass intros/breaks such as the into to Slither (velvet revolver), the bass break in Inside (stilkskin) and simmilar stuff. Never needed to use it in any purple/rainbow/whitesnake song I've ever played (and thats most of the ones that ever get an airing in pub bands).

[Cosmo Valdemar]

What I would do:

1)Agree to try the song with the pick and proceed to play intentionally badly. Make it clear that playing with a pick is not your natural style. They will soon realise that, in your case, fingerstyle sounds better. And hey, you gave it a go!

2)Begin the song with the pick, then halfway throught move around so they can't see how you are playing. Switch back to fingerstyle. After the song, see if anyone noticed a difference.