I want you to use a pick ???

[Gust0o]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1321633054' post='1441486']
I was asked to play pick in a metal band after using fingers. He was right, it worked better, he preferred it, and I used pick from then on.

It's about that, whether it sounds better or not. But unfortunately that can be subjective. Just try not to let ego get in the way.
[/quote]

Spot on. Why not give it a try and add another string to the bow? You're not sacrificing your finger technique to do this, of course, and can swap about as you wish. I change techniques in the middle of sets, it's all about what works... and not letting egos be a barrier to that.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1321969678' post='1444897']
I specialise in classic rock and have played in a purple tribute band and I play fingerstyle exclusively. Well *almost* exclusively .... a trick I use when a very pronounced attack is needed is to press my forefinger and thumb together and and pluck the string with the tip/nail of my finger near the bridge. IMO this actually sounds better, brighter and more dynamic, than using an actual pick.


[/quote]

Been away past few days so missed the updates on this one.
Good to see the thread is still running and still being debated.

I do actually use this technique more because i find it comfortable for naturally rythmic sections but very rarely within a rock band - not sure why but will add it to my list for next rehearsal.
I had actually forgotten about that one. - nice one.

SK8 - i would say it was more to do with my ego than lack of confidence with pick although you may have a point now that you've mentioned it. Now I'm just getting stressed about being incompetent at playing

Cheers
Dave

[WalMan]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1321969678' post='1444897']
I specialise in classic rock and have played in a purple tribute band and I play fingerstyle exclusively. Well *almost* exclusively .... a trick I use when a very pronounced attack is needed is to press my forefinger and thumb together and and pluck the string with the tip/nail of my finger near the bridge. IMO this actually sounds better, brighter and more dynamic, than using an actual pick.
[/quote] ... which sounds like a pick style, just you have dropped a pick and not managed to pick another up. I does, I suppose give you the easier option of switching quickly between the two
[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1321970758' post='1444916']
What I would do:

1)Agree to try the song with the pick and proceed to play intentionally badly. Make it clear that playing with a pick is not your natural style. They will soon realise that, in your case, fingerstyle sounds better. And hey, you gave it a go!
[/quote] ...except in that case you haven't actually given it a proper go.
[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1321970758' post='1444916']
What I would do:
2)Begin the song with the pick, then halfway throught move around so they can't see how you are playing. Switch back to fingerstyle. After the song, see if anyone noticed a difference.
[/quote] ...however, this is a far better option of those two

[sk8]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1322084019' post='1446432']

SK8 - i would say it was more to do with my ego than lack of confidence with pick although you may have a point now that you've mentioned it. Now I'm just getting stressed about being incompetent at playing

Cheers
Dave
[/quote]

Sorry Dave

[JTUK]

Of course, it might be down to the sound you then end up getting.

Was watching a recent Sky Arts couple of shows...with Gary Moore and then Thin Lizzy.
Lynott had one of the most atrocious sounds from a pick...truely appalling...
and that might have been reason why some changed from pick in the first place..

Not saying it need be the case nowadays but getting a sound was the reason I changed eons ago.
Would I want to re-EQ the bass for a song or two in a set nowadays... ???

[dmccombe7]

Would anyone really notice the sound difference between a pick and and using a hard dig in with fingers. My normal EQ setting already has quite a nice sharp edge to it even with fingerstyle. I don't tend to go for that bottom ended thud sound. I like a clear sharp defined sound with enough lo end to carry the song but also enough mid to hi mid to give definition and clarity.

Agree Phil Lynott didn't always have that studio over-dubbed album sound and in real life had a much more middley sound without the bottom end to carry the song. I think that's maybe what you are referring too.
On albums he tended to have a nice rounded Precision sound with enough clarity coming from the pick to define the notes.

Great showman though, very talented songwriter and a pretty good bassist considering his background did start off with being a bassist.

Met him and liked him as a person - couldn't have met a nicer guy. Shame how things turn out.

Dave

Edited November 24, 2011 by dmccombe7

[BigRedX]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1322141625' post='1447079']
Would anyone really notice the sound difference between a pick and and using a hard dig in with fingers. My normal EQ setting already has quite a nice sharp edge to it even with fingerstyle. I don't tend to go for that bottom ended thud sound. I like a clear sharp defined sound with enough lo end to carry the song but also enough mid to hi mid to give definition and clarity.
[/quote]
Depends entirely on your finger and pick techniques. When I play with a pick it sound completely different to when I play with fingers which is one of the reasons why I use both styles.

[JTUK]

[size=6][sup]I never recall him having a great sound whenever I saw him... but this is the Live and Dangerous Tour Video I am most talking about.[/sup][/size]
[size=6][sup]Very muted pick attack on a P-bass seems to be his stock in trade sound.[/sup][/size]
[size=6][sup]T-Bone Wolk did the same sort of thing..but he seemed to use a lot of compression and it worked better, IMO.[/sup][/size]

[xilddx]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1322141932' post='1447081']
Depends entirely on your finger and pick techniques. When I play with a pick it sound completely different to when I play with fingers which is one of the reasons why I use both styles.
[/quote]
Same here.

[sk8]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1322141932' post='1447081']

Depends entirely on your finger and pick techniques. When I play with a pick it sound completely different to when I play with fingers which is one of the reasons why I use both styles.
[/quote]

Me too

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1322125251' post='1446685']
Of course, it might be down to the sound you then end up getting.

Was watching a recent Sky Arts couple of shows...with Gary Moore and then Thin Lizzy.
Lynott had one of the most atrocious sounds from a pick...truely appalling...
and that might have been reason why some changed from pick in the first place..

Not saying it need be the case nowadays but getting a sound was the reason I changed eons ago.
Would I want to re-EQ the bass for a song or two in a set nowadays... ???
[/quote]

I really didn't realise so many people were closed off from one method to the other depending on which camp you fall in and I never have to change EQ settings between songs with or without a pick, maybe take some top off using the bass EQ which isnt exactly an effort is it?

I can honestly say that the idea of having to conciously stick to one technique or the other is no different to saying I will only ever play the notes C E G and F for the rest of my playing days as I have given up on A D and B.

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1322157814' post='1447408']
I really didn't realise so many people were closed off from one method to the other depending on which camp you fall in and I never have to change EQ settings between songs with or without a pick, maybe take some top off using the bass EQ which isnt exactly an effort is it?

I can honestly say that the idea of having to conciously stick to one technique or the other is no different to saying I will only ever play the notes C E G and F for the rest of my playing days as I have given up on A D and B.
[/quote]

One of the most ridiculous statements to appear in BC for a long time, IMO.

It has nothing to do with stubborness and a slavish penchant to play one technique above all else, IMV....rather more to do with the fact that some people are more comfortable with one technique over another..that they have put SO much more time in on it...and they sound so much better or play better because of that....in their opinion.
That is not to say no one is capable of getting great pick sounds.

Here are 3 ..IMO
T-Bone Wolk, Anthony Jackson and Bobby Vega.
check out Randy jackson for more of the same..

My particular fave is late 60's west coast film scores...from pretty much any studio ...

I am far and away better with fingerstyle than I ever was with a pick, I hear more of the sounds I want to play and can adapt my style accordingly.
I can get a decent pick approximation..to my mind and ears, and if that fails I can resort to a dodgy use of a pick for simple tunes should I want to.
I just wouldn't sell myself on it..

Jeez..!! some people read just what they want into some things.. that is what I would call being closed off...??

[stingrayPete1977]

There is a reason its classed as a technique, I like to at least try and have all of them at my disposal

As for reading into things, other posters have stated that they are one way or the other end of discussion its their sound and thats it.

So everyone is in an arse for hiring a guy who auditioned well without a pick and got the job then tried asking him to play with one after, for me its just one of many techniques that may or may not of come up in the audition, hopefully I would of been able to at least try any style/technique they asked me to do. Maybe they were at fault for not thinking of a way to cover all the styles that were going to be asked of him at the audition with various songs? that way if its a big problem for them they could of got someone else who was at least prepared to give it go?

[dmccombe7]

Still seeing extreme views which is always good for debate.
In my case i'm now convinced that at least trying the pick is worth a shot.
At work i will always listen to others when we come across a problem and take their views, ideas and suggestions so why am i being so stubborn when its within a band context. ?

I'm not sure on why but think because its more personal, its my hobby and its something i've devloped and worked hard at over many years especially last 10yrs to find an ideal where I'm comfortable.
I am actually re-adjusting to playing rock music again and "digging in" rather than my more recent relaxed 5 finger style that i found interesting enough to learn and adapt to how i like playing.

To say that I'm not going to change or attempt to adjust further isn't strictly true.

I do struggle with a pick as in my case its reverting back to the beginning and i stress its only in my case.
I learned and took bass lessons for few yrs with a pick but found i could do more and had a more varied approach with fingerstyle which took me a while to adapt and be competent and accomplished enough that i was in demand for session work and stand-ins on a regular basis. Through time the use of a pick dropped off as there was no demand at that time and to be honest i haven't missed the pick until 30 yrs later a keyboard player suggests it would sound better with a pick ?

Could it be because he plays guitar and occasional bass outside of this band he uses a pick. He doesn't class himself as a guitarist or bassist but simply likes to play a variety of instruments at home although he freely admits he is not at all competent on either. In his opinion or view he prefers a pick sound because he can't play fingerstyle because its alien to him.
Could this be down to that simple fact and nothing to do with how the song actually sounds. Its a case of he likes a pick sound more than fingerstyle. Who knows and i probably will never know the answer to that one ?

I don't think everyone is an arse either for hiring me - obviously
I personally think they have made an excellent choice.

I don't think they gave it enough thought at the time because they we impressed by my audition and that my fingerstyle was oddly enough capable of recreating the pick style of Glenn Hughes and Bob Daisley and as stated previously was something they had never come across before. A fingerstyle bassist with enough edge and clarity to cut through the mix and yet still carry the song without being flash and over-playing with add-on riffs to fill gaps. A solid bassist who was more then capable of playing anything they asked. And a likeable chap into the bargain

Am i reading too much into this suggestion. ?
Should that be the question rather than should i change my style of playing to suit guys who feel a pick looks and sounds better to them. Singer thought it sounded great and had no issues at all and he has more rock band experience than rest of band. Drummer wasn't giving it that much attention but couldn't see what the fuss was about really from where he was sitting.
Therefore its now down to a keyboard player who likes the sound of a pick and a guitarist who uses a pick kinda hovering on the sidelines not sure which way to go because they had waited 18mths to find a competent likeable bassist and i might get pissed off enough to tell them to sod off and "see ya" I've had enough of this c**p. No fun in this anymore.

Next rehearsal is week on Sunday due to holiday commitments and I'll probably find out more then. I have another week or so to try different approaches and work on the basic pick technique although I'm not over the moon about the pick thing.

Cheers
Dave

Edited November 25, 2011 by dmccombe7

[cheddatom]

I use a lot of pedals and have a very aggressive sound anyway, but I can get very very close to a pick sound when using my fingers. However, if I then start playing with a pick on that setting, it's just way too harsh. So, if you don't change EQ settings yes it's very obvious when switching to and from a pick. If what you're after is that difference in sound, you don't need a pick, you can use pedals.

[Conan]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1322213916' post='1447916']
Am i reading too much into this suggestion. ?
Cheers
Dave
[/quote]

I would say so. Maybe the bassist in the keyboard player's last band used a pick and he liked that style/sound? There could be so many reasons why he would like you to try it out.

It's good that you sound more positive about giving it a try now. I find it rather depressing that some people are so precious about the role of the bassist. Yes, we are the bassists and maybe the rest of the band should give us some kudos for that. But, on the other hand, a band should be at least a form of democracy and we should all feel able to comment on what the other musicians are doing? As long as it is raised politely and in a constructive way I don't see it as a problem.

It can even make us better musicians in the long run.

Anyone who feels defensive of their own technique and position in the band is probably in the wrong band.

[Conan]

[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1321970758' post='1444916']
What I would do:

1)Agree to try the song with the pick and proceed to play intentionally badly. [/quote]

What would be gained from this rather childish approach? Try it properly - you might actually like it!

As my old gran used to say "If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well".

[dmccombe7]

I've had the day off today and been working on and off with the pick and with my fingernails.
Both appear to give a similar attack and sound however I'm still of the opinion that i'm more comfortable with finger style.
I have another week before next rehearsal and intend working on both so that when i get there i have the option to try whatever it takes to nail the song correctly with how "the band" see it.
I guess I'm falling into "the band comes first" syndrom which probably ain't a bad thing.

The one positive thing that has come from this is that i realized my jazz neck was very slightly convex with no strings and that was why i was getting more noticeable fret buzz when trying the pick and finger nails.
Oddly enough this is the one bass i never actually checked when i bought it new few yrs ago. It was pretty well set up when i bought it and I've kept the same type of strings since. I guess the bass has settled a bit as I'm sure i looked at neck when i first bought it and it was ok.
Ah well at least that's a positive note. All sorted now and fret buzz reduced to a bare minimum when playing harder.

As Conan points out my attitude over this thread has probably changed from the beginning when i first raised it where my ego was initial worry and then i found that i was starting to work on how to resolve the problem to where i feel i am now looking for valid workable solutions to make it work in some way where everyone in the band is happy. A compromise perhaps.
Does that make me a better musician - i guess so IMHO

Cheers
Dave

Edited November 25, 2011 by dmccombe7

[stingrayPete1977]

Sounds good to me Dave let us know how it goes

Lets all enjoy this lesson of how to thump a nice old pre EB Stingray with a pick!
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ0MHWH-MOM&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ0MHWH-MOM&feature=related[/url]

[dmccombe7]

Aahhh Nice one Stingraypete1977
you can't keep an old rocker down - even with a pick.

Dave

[Jack]

At the end of the day, you're only limiting yourself by not using a pick. Saying 'Oh, picks aren't for me' is fair enough but (as has been pointed out) maybe the song actually would sound better with a pick? People tend to be as opinionated with picks vs. fingers as they are with valve/solid state or 4 strings/extended range when the truth is it's nowhere near as serious. They're pennies to buy and are a very useful tool to have in your arsenal.

You're a bass player, why limit your technique to a small facet of that? I assume you can slap?


On the other side of the coin, is someone ever seriously told me to use one technique (rather than a friendly helpful suggestion) he'd find my fingers being can be used for stuff that isn't strict pizzicato. I'm the bass player, thanks.

[dmccombe7]

Its not that i have anything against using a pick as such but more about finding it an uncomfortable technique after spending 30 yrs developing a style that I'm more than comfortable with. Its just something I'm used to.
I can slap and have gone from 2 finger picking to 5 finger style however I'm very comfortable using these styles and went thru these phases as a progression of where i started when deciding that i could do more with fingers than with a pick.
When i made the decision 30 yrs ago i did use both styles for some time but found that i was in more demand for finger style and the pick gradually faded to not at all.
I think i can emulate a pick with other techniques and having played mainly rock / blues and occasional jazz over the yrs i seem to have done pretty well for myself, always in demand as it were when i was actively playing although gave it up for 15yrs or thereabouts to seek other avenues (to be honest i got sick of band politics and all that went with it)
As bass is now a hobby more than anything i am therefore not contracted to any one band and for that reason i would rather play what is comfortable for me and what i enjoy. Being pushed to play a style I'm not fully conversant with after all these yrs is an area that makes me think WHY bother ? I don't need the money ? Its solely enjoyment.
Don't get me wrong i am going to give it a go no matter what it takes because i quite enjoy playing again and the guys are serious and genuine and at the end of the day a good laugh.
I hate losing or giving up on something and i think that's what is driving me to try a pick.
I have been practising with one all day. Still not happy with it and still not comfortable or competent enough to play to an audience but i know i will get there if i persist.
Question is - DO I WANT TO.

Dave

[TRBboy]

Apologies if I'm saying the same as anyone else, I've only skimmed over the thread!

I'm in a rock covers band too, and I try to use whatever technique was on the record. It's not that we try to play everything EXACTLY as the original ([b]a.[/b]because we're not good enough to and/or don't have the same setup, and [b]b.[/b] because we do like to put our own stamp on it a little), but I think that getting the right sound can sometimes help a song sound much more familiar and satisfying to the audience. I'm predominantly a fingerstyle player too (and always have been), but I think that you need to use a pick sometimes to get the right sound. We do "The Boys Are Back In Town" and "She" (by Greenday) and I couldn't imagine playing either with my fingers, it just wouldn't sound right at all IMHO. Because I'm switching between pick and fingers throughout the set, I do sometimes start playing a song and think "why does this feel weird?" and then realise I'm using the wrong one!

I guess when it comes down to it, you're the bass player so you're best qualified to know what is best for the bass parts in your band. If it's just the keyboard player bleating on about using a pick, stand your ground and do what you believe is right. If the whole band are saying it, maybe you've just got to swallow your pride and grab your pick.........


Hope this helps in some way.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1322255274' post='1448777']
Apologies if I'm saying the same as anyone else, I've only skimmed over the thread!

I'm in a rock covers band too, and I try to use whatever technique was on the record. It's not that we try to play everything EXACTLY as the original ([b]a.[/b]because we're not good enough to and/or don't have the same setup, and [b]b.[/b] because we do like to put our own stamp on it a little), but I think that getting the right sound can sometimes help a song sound much more familiar and satisfying to the audience. I'm predominantly a fingerstyle player too (and always have been), but I think that you need to use a pick sometimes to get the right sound. We do "The Boys Are Back In Town" and "She" (by Greenday) and I couldn't imagine playing either with my fingers, it just wouldn't sound right at all IMHO. Because I'm switching between pick and fingers throughout the set, I do sometimes start playing a song and think "why does this feel weird?" and then realise I'm using the wrong one!

I guess when it comes down to it, you're the bass player so you're best qualified to know what is best for the bass parts in your band. If it's just the keyboard player bleating on about using a pick, stand your ground and do what you believe is right. If the whole band are saying it, maybe you've just got to swallow your pride and grab your pick.........


Hope this helps in some way.
[/quote]

I agree and think what you've stated is probably the best way forward and exactly where i ended up.
I'm gonna try the pick and after a day practicig at home I'm finding it a lot easier than i thought.
I have a natural rythmic technique (pick style) on my right hand because of other fingerstyles i have used over the yrs like using my thumb or index finger as picks so that's the easy part. The difficult part is holding a pick for a full set which is painful after few songs but that will improve the more i use it. I still won't be anywhere near as fast or competent as fingerstyle but i ask myself "do i need to be in this band" and the answer for most songs NO.

It is mainly the kys although guitarist is kinda sitting on the fence a bit simply because he likes the image of a pick player and he has admitted that but again he's not that bothered to be honest. He's looking at the originals player and sees an image but I have raised the question of whether the band is a tribute or covers band. IMO a tribute band tends to do exactly what the originals did and a covers band does a good or hopefully good cover version which may or not be an exact copy but at least a good version.
They don't want to be a tribute band. Maybe its because i said i wouldn't be interested in doing one bands songs. They didn't advertise for a tribute band but for a classic rock band doing covers of Rainbow, Purple, Sabbath etc. where bass players have varying styles from Butler fingers to Hughes Rik sound on the live albums. Quite a wide range to cover for one bass player and that is the challenge i guess.

Cheers
Dave

[Bassman Sam]

I'm glad that you have come to this conclusion. I have used fingers, picks and even a bow on a P bass because I have been asked to. If the song calls for it, use it. It's just another tool in the box. I was better at some styles than others but it all adds to your tonal pallet.