Yamaha 02R Digital Mixing Desk..

[VTypeV4]

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/photobucket-fixer/

IF YOU'RE USING MOOZILLA FIREFOX THEN USE THE ABOVE FIX TO RESTORE IMAGES - SIMIILAR ADD-ONS ARE AVAILABLE FOR OTHER BROWSERS.

I've been a pro live sound engineer for more than ten years and have used many an analogue desk working in venues and for various pro-audio companies. However.. Inspite of this experience, I've always worked for someone else using their system and their desk. All of these have been analogue desks from dinky 8 channel Mackie and Spirit boards up to Soundcraft Series Two and Allen & Grief ML5000s.

I want my own desk!

I have used a Mackie D8B which was OK but I just didn't quite love it. I also tried a Soundcraft 328XD which was very easy to use but I've read these have a number of issues. Which leaves me with Yamaha. I have no problems Yam stuff, The analogue desks are fine as are the outboard rack units, power amps, speakers etc. Oh and the bikes are quite good too!

I'm looking to invest about £700 into a 'sorted' 02R as it looks to suit my requirements and if I decide that digital isn't for me, it can go back on eBay..!

Any peeps have experience with the 02R as a live mixing console?

Edited October 8, 2017 by VTypeV4

[Monckyman]

I havent used an 02r live, but I have owned and used the 01v92 on many a euro tour and the eq and routing are pretty similar.
You can get a pretty decent gig out of them, the eq is fine and the pre-amps are ok for live, though you can add more via the adat interface.
I used the Focusrite presonus ones for the "money chans".
The routing is good and the soft patching means you can do tricks like send one input to two chans for routing to FOH and Mon with seperate eq and dynamics.
Speaking of which the gates and comps are fine for live once you get used to dialling them in on a wheel.You get eq on all the outputs and comps as well which is great for limiting monitor mixes etc, and the eq lets you set up fake x overs for subs/bi-amping etc.
The only bad thing I would say about them is they are slow to use until you get a few files on there with the desk set up just as you like it, with an eq library and various routing choices etc,but even then, quick dialling eq in on the fly takes getting used to.
Also, you cant really push them into the red like anny desks, they just start to sound brittle,so you need a bit of headroom at the amps and run the desk a few Db lower overall.
I quite like using them now, because I got used to the yamaha way of structuring stuff.
Overall they can be a bargain, but you have to put the time in familiarising yourself.
There is also the Studio manager software for pc which can really speed up stuff like patching and routing and naming,and give you better metering during the show.
I use a little netbook for that and it works a treat for backing up the desk too.
Good luck in your search!

[VTypeV4]

Sweet, many thanks Mr M!

I like the idea of having different EQ options for monitors for the 'same' channel as such, very handy! Not something I'm used to on my good old GL3000! The idea of having EQs on all the outputs sounds great too, different master EQs for different groups? Brilliant!

Using a jog wheel and display aren't a problem for EQ, comp and gate controls. As long as I remember how to get into them of course!

I have no problem with spending time with the thing making sure I know how and where things are. I'll do this before I take it out on the road. In all fairness, I'm looking forward to the learning curve! Nights of the faders flying into position? The Mrs will murder me!

I can live with running a few dB down, its what I do with my Allen & Grief and the Mackies anyway, I like 0dBu to really be plus 3 to plus six so I know that 0 is flat out and beyond it is into limiters. I don't like red lights, they only ever mean bad things! And I'm guessing (I can't find a good pic) that -18dBFS is reference and 0 is clip like the soundcraft is? Either way, its not an issue.

With regards to the software, I can put it on my laptop however, I'd rather get used to doing it all on the desk just in case I don't have it with me. Sounds handy like you say, just to keep an eye on stuff during a show.

I can't seem to find any bad words against them, I'm guessing any teething troubles, Yamaha ironed out early on. Most of the desks out there seem to have the version two software which looks to have a number of useful improvements.

Lastly, those flying faders can never get dull can they? Ha!

[Monckyman]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1322009650' post='1445534']

I like the idea of having different EQ options for monitors for the 'same' channel as such, very handy! Not something I'm used to on my good old GL3000! The idea of having EQs on all the outputs sounds great too, different master EQs for different groups? Brilliant!

Lastly, those flying faders can never get dull can they? Ha!
[/quote]
Well, I use a couple of Y splits to do the same thing when I`m working at the local club, they also have an A&H GL4000.Really helps avoid feedback in the mons and lets you treat the vox properly for foh.
The eq on the outs of the Yams is only 4 band parametric but yes, still dead useful for notching out those bad vibes
Flying faders.. I soon learned not to keep my sharpie on some unused channels
All I can say is you`ll love it, but try and box it up properly, they won`t take the knocks.
If you are looking to go cheaper, the behringer digi desk is pretty useful, and has all the same kinds of features.
I got lumbered with a tribute band gig in a large social club and this was the desk supplied with the rig, and at first I screamed and moaned etc, but it actually did the job just as well as the yammys and sounded fine.
Hope you find the right desk!

[VTypeV4]

Many thanks Mr M!

[Pob]

I've not used it as a live desk but as a studio desk it's really very good. As you've mentioned, tons of routing options. Always enjoyed the fx too. And built like a rock.

A good bit of kit all round

[mike257]

I've never used it live either, but learnt my studio chops on a pair of linked O2Rs. I ways found them really easy to use, the important stuff is very quick to get at. Much preferred them to the D8B, I always felt that was a bit 'gimmicky' in its user interface, whereas the Yammy just got the job done.

Haven't used them in a good while, but if there's one drawback I'd imagine the converters on the original O2R are showing their age by now.

[VTypeV4]

Well it's been a million years since I looked at this thread but I've done it..

Not an 02R but a 328XD..

It came up at the right money so it had to be had!

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/328XD1_zpsc58a16ab.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/328XD1_zpsc58a16ab.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[mike257]

Great stuff! I did a bit of research on these lately as I was buying a desk for my function band's rig and heard lots of good things. I like the easy access channel strip thing they've got going on with the knobs, and it's one of the few budget digi desks with 16 discrete mic pres, most of them lumber you with 12.

I ended up going Yamaha and picking up a used 01V for a frankly ridiculous price, it's nice to just push a button and have our setup more or less there.

How is it settling in, done any gigs with it yet?

[VTypeV4]

I've done one show to date and have another with it tonight..

Last night was our house band, The Barflys who i've mixed for the last million years or so. I have to say, the desk worked a treat and without fuss or drama in a really smooth manor. I didn't have (m!)any real 'oh bugger, how do I get to that' or 'what is it doing now' moments which was a relief at the end of the show. The EQ works well, it's nice to have a Q facility to nail something nasty or just smooth a larger area although it is a bit wierd to have 3 sweepable band-pass filters, two of which will also shelve. I'm used to my old tried and trusted Allen & Heath GL3000 with two sweeps and two fixed shelves. The Soundcraft also stands up well in terms of sonics compared to the GL, it sounds at least as good. With the analogue stuff, I always found A & H to work better but Soundcraft to have the edge in the sound dept. It does have a few quirks but nothing that overly upsets me and some stuff I've already worked a better way round already. So far so good!

Oh, and just like the 01V, that save facility is fantastic. Not sure I can live without now!

[Monckyman]

Glad you found a solution.
Youre only going to get quicker now.

[VTypeV4]

Well nearly six months down the line and it's still all smiles in the Soundcaft camp.

Overview:

Having done around 120 shows on the desk since it's purchase I thought i'd let everyone know how i'd been getting on with it. It's worked faultlessly and without drama which has pretty much been as I'd hoped, no crashes or mid-set resets. I've done gigs both at the Rigger and also with my own system on a couple of external gigs. The music types have been varied from blues, through classic rock, modern metal all the way to folk and cajun types with a number of acoustic singer / song-writer types. It seems to happily handle it all with enough features to get the production just where i need it.

Sound Quality:

It's a great sounding desk. Whether it was analogue or digital, it's a truly great sounding bit of kit. It posesses that super smooth 'modern Soundcraft' sound which I would say is at least on a par with something like a GB8 or above. Scine the Rigger re-opened, I've been doing shows back on the old A&H GL3000 whilst we iron any faults without any added complication. I was quite surprised at how 'stiff' the GL sounded, the low end was still warm but it seemed to have a bit more 'honk' in the 1Khz region whilst the top end felt almost brittle. A real eye opener to be honest as I've always thought the GL to be a great sounding desk.

Ease of use:

Having used it most days since purchase, I'm finding it really very easy to get round at speed. To be fair, I don't think I'll ever get round it as fast as an analogue board but things have become pretty much 2nd nature without me having to scratch my head.
Auxes have two ways of being accessed which is really handy if you're dealing with 1 person / 1 wedge. I can either select the channel (guitar for example) and have the options of sending to Aux 1-4 and the two FX units -or- Select the Aux 1 bank then have the option send every channel (if desired) to Aux one. I can then repaet 2, 3, 4 etc.
Access to the dynamics and manipulation of is easy, straight forward and simple. It's all layed out in front of you in two button presses. 1: puts the current state of the dynamics onto the channel meters (gain reduction and gate open / closed) 2: puts the controls onto the 'E-strip' which is the row of horizontal knobs. Pressing 'dynamics' near the DRO shows the control you're manipulating visually for even greater control.
EQ is not quite the usual affair but simple enough to use anyways. It's of 3 band fully parametric design with bell filters on each band but the LF and HF can also be used as a varied frequency shelving filters if thats desired. Each channel has 100 Hz HPF so you don't need to waste a band of EQ using it as low-cut. It's sort of more flexible than the four band EQ on the GL.
Changing the parameters of the FX is quite intuitive also although remembering to press the right button when saving the patch name is important as it will name it as 'FX patch 3 ' or whatever rather than what you just spent 10 minutes dialling in. Same with the mix / snapshot saves too! In the master section, things (such as channels, groups etc) can be queried and the desk will show you the routing or assignment which can be handy if you think things have been routed wrong. Very handy as a quick visual reference.

FX and Dynamics:

Just as good as my big rack of external gear (almost!) To be fair, the gates and compression have a certain 'flavour' to them, almost a bit DBX which suits me fine as I've used many a 166 and 266XL. They're more effective and better sounding than my Behringer gates and comps not to mention the extra parameters make detail tweaks all the better. The 2 internal Lexicon FX are a distinct improvement over my old Yamaha SPX units but not quite as clever as my TC M1. The only thing that I do miss is a tap delay facility but it does offer a multi-layered delay which is pretty 'big sounding'. I've had time to program some of 'my' patches into the FX now and I managed to build them quite quickly but more importantly managed get them sounding right usually first go. Overall, both facilties work very well, especially when it's considered they're internal and on every channel.

Quirks:

It does do the odd thing that bugs me but they don't distract from what a great bit of kit it is. 1: When a channel is muted, it doesn't mute the auxes so sometimes when I need to mute both, it's a page change to mute the aux too. 2: I'll pre-face this by saying that it's something I need to get used to, it's not the desks fault. It works using dBFS scaling so I've found '0dB' to actually to be around -10dBFS. On the panel it states 0dBFS = +18dBu but there's no way -18 is 0 on this desk. 3: All master controls don't exceed 0dB. I've seen this before on older Spirit desks and it's not too much of an issue, just wished the master L/R fader and all groups ran to +10 like most other things. Not that I usually use past plus five but to me limited to 0 just bugs me a touch. 4: Lack of extrenal analogue outputs. I have LR, Aux 1-4 and a couple of headphone and control room outs but thats about it. All group outs, direct outs and indeed pretty much any other out is digital which is great for linking into the computer but limits connectivity to other devices.

Conclusion:

It's brilliant, reasonably simple, very effective and sounds great all in one neat box. My business partner is so impressed he's pick up an original 328 to do his gigs on. I don't think he's quite up to speed with it yet but much like mine, it's pretty quick and easy to pick up.



Hope this helps anyone considering one.

This is a slightly edited version of a review I put on BFMs forum so it's slightly out of date but most of what I said still applies. Having gone a bit further in depth with the desk over the last few months, I feel the following is worthy of mentions:

It's nice to be able put dynamics on groups, particularly separating main vocals / backing onto different groups and using slightly different compression curves on each to give them their own space. To be fair, I don't often use this and found it not to be quite as effective as individual channels dynamics but it was interesting to try it as an exercise. I find it works best with 'lighter' sounding musicians.

Using -10dBFS has become second nature and using '0' on the A & H almost seemed wierd!

It's very handy to have the knobs do whatever you're 'not' doing. I appreciate that sounds like a contradiction but let me be clear. The faders have four functions accessed by the square buttons on the left side of the desk. One does channels 1-16, the second does 17-32 and the last brings in the master section with groups and aux masters. With nothing selected the unit becomes a MIDI control surface. When on the master section for example with nothing (channels) selected, the knobs on the 'E-strip' become the 'faders' on channels 1-16 (or 17-32 if selected) so if needed whilst making changes on the master section, you can still mix your channels. Genius!

I've had chance to properly setup my FX now and I'm really happy with where they're at.They're now better than I had out of the SPXs and on par with the TC but I just don't quite have the flexibility it offers. Damn good for inside a ten year old desk!

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/RigCraft2_zps99d7b7db.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/RigCraft2_zps99d7b7db.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Bit of a ropey pic pre-refurb..

[crez5150]

I've got 2 x 328's (not xd version) for the studio that are linked together..... great desks.... allows me to run 32 channels of ADAT through Motu interfaces.... these desks, considering how old they are now, still cut it.

[VTypeV4]

I do think they're a massively underrated bit of kit both in terms of sonic integrity and also ease of use. Glad your 328s are still going Crez, may they live long!

[VTypeV4]

Still really enjoying the use of my 328XD after all this time, a great console.

I have a plan to get myself the recording gear enabling me to do some live recording but before that, I'm pending the arrival of another desk. The original version of my XD, a Spirit 328 which I'm gonna use as a monitor desk for a bit more flex and control. Pix will follow when it lands in the next couple of days..

Next on the list is a MOTU 828 and a half decent computer allowing 16 channels of simultaneous digital recording..

[VTypeV4]

New desk day..

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0022_zpsehdswgu_edit_1414871638501_zpsaqg6xkzo.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0022_zpsehdswgu_edit_1414871638501_zpsaqg6xkzo.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Edited November 1, 2014 by VTypeV4

[VTypeV4]

And I bought the Yamaha too, need time to learn it and get it configured before I use it under battle conditioons..

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0024_zpsgyosp2j9.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0024_zpsgyosp2j9.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0023_zpsocr6ecnf.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0023_zpsocr6ecnf.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

It's a version two with two ADAT cards, an AES/EBU card and a cascade card although the latter is moot as I'm the only person I know who has one. It's very clean but it's physically larger than expected - it dwarf my 328s - and weighs alot too. There's a common link with the style of operating system used on these with the LS9 which I'm reasonably familiar with so it's not totally foreign but I don't think it'll be anywhere near as quick as the Soundcrafts to navigate. It seems to be alot more complex than the 328s without lots more options..

Time will tell!

[mike257]

New toys! Yeah, they're big beasts, the 02R. Very capable desk though. Looking forward to hearing how you get on with it!

[Huge Hands]

My experiences of 02R's in a live setting about 10 years ago were (and you've already touched on a lot of these):

Really heavy for size.
Input preamps (analogue gain knob) go into nasty sounding distortion very easy at the slightest flicker of a red light.
Not good for "on the fly" mixing as they're not that fast to navigate through the pages - especially if you've not had a soundcheck!
Better if using as stored automated mix (tour style) with just some tweaking.

My final piece of advice that I learned at the time was to ignore the pretty graphs the parametric EQ's draw - just concentrate on the actual numbers you're dialling in. I know that sounds obvious, but I would keep getting distracted by the amount of weird wavy lines I was getting instead of what I knew would be the right settings to get it to sound better!

[VTypeV4]

Cheers gents..

Well I've got myself some recording kit too so the 02R will probably tie into that, less so for the FOH mix but I'm gonna learn my chops on it anyways. The 328XD is such a good desk for FOH, I'm loathe to change it anyways.

I've too much gear and a lot of learning to do iin the near future so i'll keep this thread posted..

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0026_zpsnrrrcau6.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0026_zpsnrrrcau6.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[VTypeV4]

Well, I've done a few shows on the 02R and they've largely gone without drama or upset..

Navigation as previously mentioned is a bit of an issue in a live envinronment but much like the LS9, the three green EQ knobs are handy quick 'hands on' as are the sends on faders for the auxes. More arkwardly, the controls for the dynamics facilities are somewhat buried especially if you're anywhere other than the dynamics screen on the console but even then it's a bit of a faff with the navigation keys.

The routing is potentially complex too, however for live use I simply routed 1-16 to 1-16 to L/R and routed the direct outs to the two ADAT cards without worrying about busses 1-8 for the AES / EBU card. There's all sorts of crazy options for routing! I setup a mute group for my FX returns which was easy enough and handy too (sadly something my beloved Soundcrafts don't have) rather than muting them individually. There's options for fader groups too although using the small amount channels (I average 14 or so), there's not much point although in retrospect, I suppose could use a group for the toms.

On another positive note, output levels are very healthy indeed with -18dBFS truly being a decent 0dB reference on L/R and all aux outs. As mentioned above, my 328s seem to need bit more welly (-10 or so) to acheive the same.

I've decided that I will keep the 02R as post-production and editing desk for my recordings rather than a live desk. It will do the job well (it's what it was really designed for) as I can route my outs from Protools to the ADAT outs on the MOTU and mix it on the console using it's tape ins (1-16 then flip bank to use faders rather than knobs) and then return it either on the AES / EBU, S/PDIF or analogue back into the MOTU. If I want of course, I can just mix in Protools but its nice to have the option! I haven't tried it that configuration yet as space is a limitation as is the 20 bit word length on the ADATs but at 48K sample rate, there's more than enough resolution to my ears.

I read a number of reviews about the questionable sound quality of the 02R but frankly, it sounds just fine to me. It doesn't sound exceptional and it doesn't have the 'super smooth' thing the 328XD has (nor does my standard 328) but it does sound on a par with the analogue GL series Allen & Heath so as a reference, I'm sure it'll do fine.

To put it simply, the 328 and XD are much better to use as live desks owing to their quick navigation so they haven't been trumped by the 02R but it will be useful for it's purpose and if I get mad with it, I'll move it on..

I did a job for Bullet Sound at the Victoria Hall last week and had to get my head round something rather more advanced than any of my 'vintage' digital consoles...

Digico SD8: Brilliant and terrifying especially with 47 Channels on the go..!

[url="http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0034_zpsuvgfaevi.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0033_zpsfayooaqa.jpg.html"][/url]

I'll talk about this another time.

Edited December 30, 2014 by VTypeV4

[mike257]

Haven't used the Digico stuff yet, the venues I work are all Avid, Yamaha and Soundcraft, be interested to hear how you got on. Heard mixed things about how straightforward they are as a "walk-up" desk if you've not had time to familiarise with it.

[VTypeV4]

My introuction to the SD8 was a few years ago but it was simply 'have a look at this bad-boy, mate' in the yard at Bullet Sound. I've been on jobs with it but Steve has usually mixed FOH on it whilst I've been put on an LS9. Sadly, Steve left recently and is now working at Adlib so Dave at Bullet has had to get his head round it as have I.

Over view:

It is very nearly a 'walk up' desk with everything clearly visible on the large centre display and secondary screen. The centre screen is touch so anything you need to access or view in greater detail is right in front of you plus you can toggle what is viewed on it with the three buttons above the master fader. Fader banks are grouped into twelves but any bank can be put anywhere so I assigned my input channels to far left and right then master section to the centre. Flicking through the banks is equally easy by using the row of four colour coded and user-named buttons next to each group of faders. The knobs above the fader groups are also user assignable / switchable too with a similar colour / name system. As you would expect, this desk runs a 'Fader Group' style DCA system so I assigned all of my separate 'mix areas' ( choir, orchestra, front 58s, radios, band etc) to a mix fader group and largely ran the console from these.

Channel Strip:

Everything you could ever want really.Recallable head-amp with optional 'valve warmth' stage, 4-band fully parametric with separate HPF and LPF with variable slopes on each, a gate, a compressor (optional multi-band or pseudo valve style), all the auxes on knobs and / or faders, clear labelling and graphical representation of each and every parameter, an option time delay etc Everything worked beautifully if I'm honest, no complaints. Lots of options too, I think you can change where in the signal path all the modules fit (I think) although I didn't feel the need to meddle, especially on my first go with it.

In Use:

Pretty terrifying initially but it quickly puts you at ease with its well labelled and clear display. Input levels are metered easily by a string of arrowed green, yellow and red LEDs running parallel with the channel fader and on the masters too although everything is metered on the second display so keeping an eye on levels is no problem. Flying faders are always great, the groups make things much simpler once you have a suitable balance and watching a bunch of faders fly by moving just one is brill! Aux sends are simply two presses to put them on faders which is what I used although the option to assign knobs or use the 'selected knob' was also there. Master, aux and group grpahic EQ sections can be assigned to the master section but I think there's an option (can't remember, sorry) so all (not just a bank of 12) the faders become the EQ for quick changes which I needed to get at a few times.

In conclusion:

The SD8 is the most 'complete' and comprehensive console I've used to date. It does more than anything I own by a long shot, it's more capable than an LS9 or Qu or Expression and amazingly, it's very friendly to use which was the big shocker for me, especially considering the high channel count and amount of swap overs during the show. It's a premium console and as such costs but it's a stunning bit of gear that works very well indeed. The only thing I can't judge is it's sonic quality as I used an L'acoustics ARCS system run with Lab Gruppen amps and an Ashly Protea system controller and while I have used these before, I'm not familiar enough with them to make a comparison. L'acoustics sound great tho!

Edited January 4, 2015 by VTypeV4

[VTypeV4]

Bought myself a meter-bridge for the 02R, pix to follow..

[VTypeV4]

Some shots of the 02R in action this evening..

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/FullSizeRender4_zps01cca32b.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/FullSizeRender4_zps01cca32b.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/FullSizeRender3_zps2f12eac3.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/FullSizeRender3_zps2f12eac3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

The meterbridge has been an excellent addition to the console, it has helped massively with the functionality and navigation during the heat of battle. It's one less thing to worry about and saves changing and checking the 'meter' page, I really cant believe how much difference it has made! The fact that it looks cool too is a massive winner..