Yamaha 02R Digital Mixing Desk..

[VTypeV4]

Yet more food for thought there, cheers man..

Another Unity card has popped up on eBay for reasonable coin so if it's still there payday, I'll grab it..

[VTypeV4]

New Unity card purchased! It's due to land a little later this week..

On a different note, we did some recording this evening so I used the 'Analogue card' 02R for tracking via a Behringer USB I/O device - my MOTU is somewhat burried at work. The Behringer can only do two in / out but it's enough for recording. I'll have a look at mixing it at work assuming we finish the vocals tomorrow..

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0257_zpsnmch3oqc.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0257_zpsnmch3oqc.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0256_zpsag3yrmy7.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0256_zpsag3yrmy7.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/IMG-20161107-WA0003_zpsp6ukao0x.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/IMG-20161107-WA0003_zpsp6ukao0x.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

New and old working together - our drummers' newish Mac-Book with Logic X (It's pretty good to be fair but I'm used to Pro Tools and Cu-Base) plus the fancy 'I can control the faders with my ipad' app thing all supported via my semi vintage 02R and monitored via a really old Peavey XR600.

[VTypeV4]

New card landed today! The item was just as described - kind of.. The seller thought it only ran the dual M2000 processors but in actual fact, the card has a dual license and runs both dual M2000 or M2000 / Finalizer! As a second bonus, the card is an extended in/out example complete with the TDIF / ADAT interface.. It's the latest software version too (v.2.20) so no updating required!

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0258_zpsbo2627mz.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0258_zpsbo2627mz.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

I need to reconfigure some of the patches on the console as well as routing options as they seem a bit all over the place but half an hour will see it square and sorted.

I've got some more recording tonight so I'll take some more pix of the 'analogue card 02R' if I get chance.

[mike257]

Ah, brilliant! If memory serves me right, we had the Finalizer card in the studio one back in the day. Got lucky there!

I'm thinking of cascading my 01V pair for a gig this weekend, although there's a fair chance I can just nick an X32 from work so might not bother!

[VTypeV4]

I wasn't overly hot on the Finalizer processing - it sounds fine but I just found it a little uninspiring although to have the option again is a plus.

The M2000s on the other hand are truly excellent and surpass the onboard Yamaha SPX (nothing wrong with them, they work just fine and are more than useable) and even my own TC Electronic M1. I looked at purchasing an M2000 but even second hand they're more than twice the price of a Unity. I also looked at another M1 as well as a Yamaha REV500 because they're both reasonably cheap (£120 or thereabouts) and sound great but I couldn't beat the Unity on bang for buck and the convenience of it being inside the console..

I really need to have a sit down with an X32 - still haven't really had a meddle let alone done any mixing on one. The pub across town (ran by my old boss - we're still on good terms) has one and he thinks it's great.

[VTypeV4]

It's been a while since I posted here so I thought I'd do a catch up..

[url="http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0266_zpspqpgryjk.jpg.html"][/url]

This was another Unity card I purchased from eBay for installation in the 'analogue card' 02R however it didn't work and caused the console to crash everytime I fired it up. I tried it in one at work too but it was exactly the same so I've returned it and pending the outcome which will hopefully be a refund in full. Grr I have also removed the analog cards and replaced them with two ADAT and an AES card so it's closer to the spec to the pair at work.

[url="http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0265_zpsgtfbqjak.jpg.html"][/url]

I've swapped soundcrads at work too - there's now a firewire 828 MK3 in place of the 828x which may seem a reverse step but it works in exactly the same way giving me the same I/O and freeing the Thunderbolt / USB equipped one for mobile and more modern computers..

I have also purchased a REV500 Effects unit (not pictured) as I fancied one for a while. It has not disappointed offering some absolutley luscious and truly believable reverbs. It worked lovely for live but I did a mix for a band recently and it made the sound truly epic. It's a slightly different flavour than the TC ones and different again from the SPX units in the 02Rs but it's a great unit - it's a keeper..

[url="http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/IMG-20170119-WA0002_zpsc3b8lm2l.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0278_zps2wimcotz.jpg.html"][/url]

As part of my on-going studio project, I have a plan that will have an 'A' Studio for which I can charge a premium and a second 'B' option for the slightly more budget concious players. The 'A' studio will have this lovely 48 frame Allen & Heath ML5000 and racks of analog gear. It has been purchased from a pro hire company near Manchester who specialise in theatre and musicals. They have replaced it with a Digico SD8 and accompanying rack. The 'B' Studio will likely be run with the 02Rs - what else!

[url="http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0280_zpse0wqajrq.jpg.html"][/url]

And lastly this may look familiar but it's not the same one at the start of the thread as that now lives with my apprentice. This example was again purchased from ebay with a boot fault on the cheap. These have a little fault that is common but it's an easy fix so, taking a risk, I've pulled it apart and as you can see in the pic, it once again lives. After a very breif stay with me here, I'll sell it on to help pay for the ML..

Edited January 20, 2017 by VTypeV4

[mike257]

Awesome! I almost took on a warehouse a few years back with the intent to open it up as rehearsal and recording space. Bottled it in the end at the realisation of just how much finance I'd have had to take on - the studio was the bit I was really keen on but the more I got in to the details, it was the most expensive part, and the least certain to make the money back - it's a saturated market around here.

Love the idea of basing it around an analogue desk though. I had a deal lined up on an A&H GS3000, I'd tracked through it in a local studio and they were moving it on for something fancy. Always preferred mixing in the real world to doing it with a mouse.

[mike257]

You going to track to computer or are you going full old school?

[VTypeV4]

I'm trying to get nearly everything in place gear wise before sorting property as so many places come and go. I've got some pennies saved too so I'm trying avoid any loans or finance deals so put simply if it doesn't work and I don't get enough work, I can close the door, sell some gear and go back to live. It's still all a bit scary though! There is also saturation locally so I'm looking to set it up just a bit out of the area particularly as one of the best (probably [i]the [/i]best) is literally just around the corner from The Rigger. They have Neve, SSL plus all the usual 1176, Pultec, Distressors, API 500, Manley etc and I can't get near that for a new venture..

I think the charm and visual impact of a large analogue console will make a good impression and being one of the finest consoles built by A&H with flexible routing, comprehensive EQ etc plus being a 48 frame, I could use one side in and the other out. I haven't mixed a recording on an analogue console since I was 16 - that was an A&H too, a GS3V so I'm quite excited at the prospect. There's a recording I did for my band that we never finished so I'm gonna get some looms this week and do a mix on the ML although I'll have to largely use software compression / gating and FX.

I looked at the GS3000 you metioned, they look great and seeem to have a good reputation but aren't often up for sale - I assume those that have them like them! The newer GSR24(M) looks to be a comprehensive update of the old 3000 but at £5000, they're a bit outside my budget.

And no, I'm bottling it and sticking with a computer for recording as I know next to nothing about tape machines plus their initial and maintenance costs are somewhat prohibitive. I love the idea but thats a bit further down the road.

Onwards and uupwards!

[althemusicwizard]

Hey guys,
Long time since posting.....OMG....I've just looked at my original post....it was in 2015!

A lot happened last year but I didn't realise it was 2015 that I tried the 'mixer experiment'.

Well no surprise I haven't been back here as I've been too busy mending analogue mixers. I ended up buying a Tascam M3500 in about Jan 2016. Went all the way to Edinburgh to pick it up and then spent the next couple of months re-capping the PSU and the master section. In the end it was a great mixer, but it didn't have any automation or recall so I've just sold it, along with the Ghosts and the Mackie and the Spirit.

I'm now left with the O2Rs. I have one in a flightcase with two analogue cards (giving 40 ins and 20 outs). This is the gigging mixer. I've just installed one with a meterbridge to take the outputs of a Fostex G24S. I also spent last year accumulating 24 track 1" machines. I now have two Fostex G24S (totally renovated and setup with brand new heads....you may have seen them on Ebay....I now plan to use them). I also have two Tascam MSR24 DBX.

When I had the Tascam M3500 desk, I was looking for a convertor to accept the 24 outs of the G24S so I could dump into computer with a view to mixing and processing in there. I bought an RME Fireface UFX and two Behringer ADA8200. They weren't cheap, but what a combination! I now have an ITB setup or a tape /digital mixer setup . The bonus is that the RME will at a push double up as a live mixer and 30 track recorder too! It's an amazing piece of gear and one that I plan to keep for a long time. I bought it with a 5 year guarantee so piece of mind about that.
So, my studio has had a bit of a re-fit. I do have one of the O2Rs on Ebay at the moment, but I'm not that bothered if it doesn't sell as I've now got rid of a rack that i had to build to store all the mixers and it and a spares machine is sat on top of the PA now out of harm's way. I've even thought of buying a flightcase for it, but at £180 I might just wait for another flightcased O2R to come up. I picked up a mint condition, flightcased O2R with 2 ADAT cards when I was looking for £250....absolute steal.

Here's some pics:

[url="https://www.flickr.com/photos/33383402@N06/albums/72157678602814990"]https://www.flickr.c...157678602814990/play[/url]

Later,
Al

Edited February 10, 2017 by althemusicwizard

[VTypeV4]

Lots of stuff happening there, Al - looking good!

[althemusicwizard]

Forgot to say, I use Reason as my DAW. I moved to it once it gained recording abilities. It doesn't do VST plug-ins so less things to get distracted by, hence the keyboard and screen in one of the shots. The keyboard is a Nektar Panorama P6 which is a great bit of kit if you're a Reason user as it interfaces really well.

I also forgot to say that I arrived at the Yamaha O2R situation after using Behringer X32 in various models (console, Producer, Racks) but sonically I don't think they added much if anything over the O2R. They've just upgraded the PC editing software X-Edit 3.1 which allows users to redefine the fader channels to their own liking.

Another mixer that was recently on my radar was the brand new, out sometime now, Presonus StudioLive Series III. It looks on demo presentations as a very good mixer, both for studio and live......but £300 for an O2R or £3000 for a StudioLive. Yet, I have to remind myself how much this stuff cost in the past.....£3000 for an Alesis Adat that come up on Ebay for £50. That's one of the reasons though for my reluctance to buy any new music technology product. Unless it really meets a need, I try to walk past.

Al

[VTypeV4]

Alot of it does indeed come down to 'bang for buck' and slightly older (and much older, i guess!) digital gear offers tremendous value these days.. I looked at the list prices of the 02R and it's accessories from '99 - 2000 and to spec one to the current state of my pair at work would be in the region of £11K - each! Just the meter-bridge was over a grand.. So, if we scale it out £22K then is about 28K today (according to the internet) so we could purchase a fully kitted A&H dLive system, two and a half DM2000, nearly a VI3000 or any number of vintage analogue 'boutique' consoles.. Madness! Same with the older style analogue VCA consoles - my ML5000 was stupidly cheap considering it too was £25K+ 15 years ago..

I'm glad you commented on the sonic integrity of the Yamaha as there's a few threads (mainly gearslutz) slamming the 02R. Personally, I'd take an 02R or two to mix anything on as I think they're rock solid.

Maybe I'm cloth eared or I don't have 'golden ears' or whatever but I've only ever used a couple of consoles that I thought weren't up to it. One was an ancient Peavey and two were early Behringer Eurolive consoles although they both had faults which may have been a factor in their less than stellar performance. I'm not a 'Behringer basher' - I've used a number of their mixers that worked fine - even the dinky ones are ok plus there's nothing wrong with the outboard either - some of it is truly excellent.

I'll be very interested to see the price of current digital mixers in another ten years especially as some are very reasonably priced even new. Examples being A&H Qu, Behringer X32, Yamaha TF - all are around the £1500 mark (give or take).. I think the 02Rs may be retired by then!

[mike257]

Al - your pictures just put a real smile on my face. It's the first time in as long as I can remember that I've seen a photo of a studio mix position that didn't have a single computer monitor up in the middle of it. I remember when we used to mix with our ears and not our eyes!

[mike257]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1486776312' post='3234552']
I'll be very interested to see the price of current digital mixers in another ten years especially as some are very reasonably priced even new. Examples being A&H Qu, Behringer X32, Yamaha TF - all are around the £1500 mark (give or take).. I think the 02Rs may be retired by then!
[/quote]

I don't think they'll have the same kind of longevity. As good as I think the X32 is for the price point, it's been built to that price, whereas the 02R was a much higher-end device in its day, and I think the build quality reflects that. I've used plenty of X32s with dicky encoders and sticky mute-group buttons - both well known problems only 3-4 years in to its existence as a product.

[VTypeV4]

I wonder how long Yamaha intended the 02R to last - a design life of ten years maybe? Almost certainly not 20 years! Ha!

[althemusicwizard]

Don't be surprised if the O2Rs outlive the X32 and the rest. Behringer gear is much better than it used to be, but that said, I can't see an X32 surviving much past ten years. My Hymer motorhome was designed with a life expectancy between 10-15 years...it's already 22 years young.....mind you it was around £100K when it came out. I've never really invested much into the computer, as I soon became tired of the endless updates and upgrading.
I now sit in a studio that as an eighteen year old I could have only dreamed about. In fact, in the late eighties I produced a few jingles that ended up on national TV with less gear than I now own....I remember specing a studio for the company that I worked for as we lined up a move to Cabot Square, one of the original buildings in Canary Wharf......I speced a Yamaha DRM8, costing I think £25K at the time. Unfortunately, the studio was one thing the company cut so I never got to try one out....I bet you couldn't give one away now on Ebay. [url="http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/about/history/"]http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/about/history/[/url]


Though out of all the equipment that I've been through in the last thirty years, my biggest regret was buying three ADATS and a BRC......without even trying a 1" or 2" machine. They only lasted a couple of years until HDR caught up. If you'd have told me in 2000, that in 2017 I would have a Yamaha O2R with a 1" tape machine and a computer / Hard Disk setup Iwouldn't have believed you.

Edited February 12, 2017 by althemusicwizard

[althemusicwizard]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1486807664' post='3234642']
Al - your pictures just put a real smile on my face. It's the first time in as long as I can remember that I've seen a photo of a studio mix position that didn't have a single computer monitor up in the middle of it. I remember when we used to mix with our ears and not our eyes!
[/quote]

The thing with ITB stuff is that it always takes me three and four times longer to mix..and as a mate of mine remarked, you seem to get to a point somewhere in the mix where it starts to begin to sound worse....as if the computer is falling over somewhere. The good thing with a piece of gear like the RME is that it takes some of the work off the computer. I've just been investigating some orchestral sample libraries (which I've never got into). Initially, they sound amazing, but after a time, they all begin to sound the same. That's the beauty of using different gear to everyone else...at least you're going to sound individual. One of my favourite albums from the last few years is K.T.Tunstall's 'Invisible Empire'. I found out the American guy that produced it recorded it I think to 2" and a Soundcraft Ghost. Now the songs are great, but so is the production.
Al

[althemusicwizard]

Hey VT....I was looking at getting an ML5000 recently or an MH4 (neither of which I have experience with, but as you say a £20000 desk has got to be good).
The reason I shelved the idea was because I only really have access to half the studio now (6m x 4m) in which everything has to live (also the PA gear). Wifey has taken over the other half and as her teaching practise has expanded at the same rate mine has declined....it makes economic sense. The desk would have been too big.....and since I have all these O2Rs knocking around, it just makes more sense at this time. I did have an Allen & Heath GS3000 in here a couple of years ago. I couldn't get used to the 'reverse' way it handles the 'small' faders and the main ones. Also it had annoying '8 input' modules that needed to be removed if something was to be fixed...I take it the ML5000 is modular (each channel?) or is it the same?

I had also been looking at the new Presonus StudioLive Series III....which looks very impressive (and also records 32 tracks to on-board SD card). But once you get past all the good things, I'd be surprised if head to head, blind-testing with an O2R, you could tell significant difference. What is interesting is that 22 years on from the release of the O2R, here is a desk that still ONLY functions at 44 / 48kHz. If that rate is so awful for the O2R, why have Presonus just released the same? And the X32....and the Qu series and the Mackie.....etc.

Your plans look impressive VT. I looked at 'The Rigger' (are you the house engineer)? It looks like a good gig place. I'll have to pop down one weekend in the motorhome and camp somewhere nearby and sample the live scene. I can't believe I first went to Manchester as a student in 1982, moved away and came back to Bury in 2000, but only went to the Deaf Institute last week to see an amazing band from Minneapolis that I've been following for a few years online....'Darlingside'....cracky musicians. They all performed around a home-made condensor mic (their acoustic instruments were also mic'd or DI'd)....but the sound on stage was minimal. They all sing (kind of barbershop meets The Beachboys meets Madrigals....the style is eclectic) and play. They've probably returned to the States now, but if you like something different, they're well worth seeing. Anyhow, the Deaf Institute is a cracking venue....much smaller than I imagined, but a great place to get up close with 200 other people.....I don't like big gigs.

Al

Edited February 13, 2017 by althemusicwizard

[VTypeV4]

The ML is lovely - once the flagship of the A&H fleet is still a very solid performer today with some very thoughtful design touches. I did look at a couple of MH4 consoles as well as a Series 5 from Soundcraft (and even a Yam PM3500 and M3000A!) as I've had many a good experience with the smaller models including Series 2 and GB ranges. A GB8 is one of the sweetest sounding boards I've used - a real nice bit of kit but opted for the A&H because I've used an ML5000 previously and never had any hands on wiith the MH / S5 or Yamaha models. I felt the EQ was amongst the best I've used on any analog mixer, the VCA and mute-group operation was simple yet comprehensive, lots of auxes, 8 audio groups so I can still apply comps and EQ on the bus inserts - it just seemed right and ticked all the boxes. I never thought I'd own one, not a mortal like myself - I thought they'd be forever the hideously expensive and out of reach.

I have a soft spot for A&H as I've used lots of them over the years - one of the places I used to work at years ago ran a GL2200 which was a lovely desk back then. It was later replaced with a Mix Wizard WZ3 with built in FX which was a good little desk (although the PA was a bit toss) but I did miss the sub-groups a little. I've mentioned before, we used to run a GL3000 at The Rigger for many years but that's now retired and it's PSU's seem to have gone AWOL. Also worthy of a mention is the GL4000 - I always seemed to come accross these on the smaller festival scenea few years back - it's nearly always an LS-9 these days. I think they were a cracking desk with lovely EQ.

I had a look at my ML earlier Al, and the fader banks do appear to be in banks of 8 - have a look at the pic..

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/ML5000_zps12cmzqca.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/ML5000_zps12cmzqca.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

And I am indeed the in-house engineer - been there too long really but it's mostly cool..

[VTypeV4]

Its worth noting that I haven't done enough work with the ML yet to make any direct comparisons with other consoles - including the 02R although early impressions are very promising. I'm also lacking a degree of the peripheries I want to go with the console such as compressors, gates, EQ and FX units - I have some but not as many as I'd like. I made use of our old Behringer MDX 2200 compressors (4 so eight channels of comp), the Auto Quad gate and the pair of old SPX90s which were somehow much better than I remember.

Interesting you mention the 44.1 / 48 sample rate there, Al and very interesting that there's still new products for sale with this apparent 'limitation'.. I can just about hear the difference between 44.1 / 16 bit and 48 / 24 bit but certainly can't hear any improvemet of 192 / 32 bit. Maybe it's just me?

[Huge Hands]

The A&H ML5000 was one of the last desks I bought as an in-house tech manager around 14 years ago before I left and moved away from live sound. I bought it as an upgrade to the previous GL series we had. At the time, I felt the functionality you got for the price was second to none.

I thought it was a great desk, and loved the VCA control on them instead of using subgroups. I never used one for studio, just live, so having no overlaid return channels was not a problem.

To answer the modular question, if I know Allen and Heath, I would have thought that all access would be through the panel underneath. The channels are probably all individual boards, but the faders will be on disconnectable cables and attached to a plate 8 wide. I do remember ours being taken apart as it had an issue on delivery, but it was so long ago, I can't remember for sure how it was set up.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Huge Hands

[VTypeV4]

I haven't used one since 2004 so my memory is a bit distant but I remember being very impressed with the way the whole thing worked - it was my first time running with fully parametric sections on a desk and VCA groups too. The gig was through a big rig in a small room so it was awesome!

I'm not worried about having dedicated returns, I'm happy to 'borrow' some channels from the tracking side if needs be. I'll probably be running a different interface with greater I/O by the time I implement the ML on a permenant basis anyways. I may even use the GL for some extra tracking channels. I'm pleased the ML has a 'control room' out of sorts although it's not called that - it's monitor out or such similar and tracks L/R and then overides for P/AFL and has an independent level control.

One thing that has made me think whilst using the ML is how much the facilities on the 02Rs could be taken for granted. I'm very used to gates and compressors being available everywhere as well as EQ on every I/O too. In a live environment, I wouldn't be overly fussed to never use an analogue / outboard setup again as digital is so much more convenient but as suggested elsewhere - there's something quite organic about putting a mix together in the studio with a big console and outboard. I'm not about to give my 02Rs for studio or live - some of the best work I've done has been done on them. I wonder if I can better it with the ML..

I still can't believe some of the gear I own and how little some of it has cost.

[althemusicwizard]

The amount of control room options was one of the first things I noticed with the first O2R when I got it....and how many desks have 3 sets of digital 2-track returns and 2 sets of analogue 2-track returns....all with separate switches to solo them? Not many, that's for sure. I do love the AUX on Faders too...it makes setting EFX sends or AUX feeds so easy..

Al

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='althemusicwizard' timestamp='1487114758' post='3237313']
The amount of control room options was one of the first things I noticed with the first O2R when I got it....and how many desks have 3 sets of digital 2-track returns and 2 sets of analogue 2-track returns....all with separate switches to solo them? Not many, that's for sure. [i][b]I do love the AUX on Faders too...it makes setting EFX sends or AUX feeds so easy..[/b][/i]

Al
[/quote]

This ^ Definitely plus it gives a very visual representation of that particular mix which can be handy.