Recording double bass - suggestions sought

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1322176559' post='1447720']
The FMR RNP is a stunning little pre and shouldnt break the bank.
[/quote]

Just googled it. £490. I've had cars that cost less than that!!

[51m0n]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1322212943' post='1447903']
Just googled it. £490. I've had cars that cost less than that!!
[/quote]

Ah yes but in the world of recording that is next to nothing, forgive Rimskidog, he is coming from a [b][i]seriously [/i][/b]pro studio mentallity, try googling "API 1608" for a taste of why £490 is pants all (and yes, even that is a cheap console by some standards).

And the FMR stuff is really really good value for money (believe it or not).

[51m0n]

I can definitely here a nasty bit of top end buzz that seems to be coming from the bass (only there when you are playing), cant hear a whine on these headphones (they are getting very long in the tooth now though).

[Bilbo]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1322214440' post='1447924'] try googling "API 1608" [/quote] This is absolutely true. The API 1608 came up at £42,000. My first HOUSE was £41,500!!!!

[Bottle]

Bilbo, my friend

I also have a USB interface and a semi-portable Reaper recording setup if you'd like to try recording into a PC with a different signal chain. I have an M-Audio Fast-Track Pro which has decent pre's in it for the money, and works well with condensers (has a phantom power output), plus the NT4 of course.

Good luck with the rest of the recording stuff

Ian

[Bilbo]

My next attempt will be to look at the current signal chain: NT1-A - Focusrite Plantinum pre-amp/compressor - Edirol UA-20 Audio Capture usb interface - PC (Cubase) and make sure I have the right levels across the board. It may be that I can reduce the hiss by using the gear more intelligently. Then I am going to try an alternative mic (SM58) Then the two mics, placed in different configurations, through a Behringer desk and into the UA-20 Then all of the above again but with a simulatneous pick-up/Fishman Plat Pro line in there too And all with a weird array of pseudo gobos.....

Its guerilla recording, that's what it is!

[51m0n]

Gain structure is vital for dealing with noise.

Its not so difficult to get a decent level, but if the preamp that is bringing that level rise is noisy you are f****d.

If you have various places where you can add that level (true in some signal chains) my usual starting point is to get the level up as close to the mic as you can, anything later in the chain is only going to bring up the noise of the earlier devices as well.

I would include the mic lead here, a crap lead can add all sorts of weird noise, and its not until you swapped everything else out that you try swapping that bloody lead, and then the noise is gone, and the signal is twice the volume....

Nothing wrong with guerrilla recording, its brought many great pieces of music to us all - Joe Meek was probably the original mad scientist of guerrilla recording!

[Bilbo]

Could certainly be the mic lead as, when I got them, it was for a one off live gig so I spent pennies on it. How much would a credible studio quality mic lead cost? £4K? More?

Seriously, though. What would be a good brand to go for if you wanted a quiet lead?

[51m0n]

About a million quid if you are insisting on using it for jazz apparently....

Something to do with the crystalline structure of the head or something?








Just use a decent lead - Neutrik XLRs, decent cable, properly soldered - and you are golden (maybe £25 for 5m)

Edited November 25, 2011 by 51m0n

[Bilbo]

The best jazz requires you to play straight into the horn.....

[51m0n]

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1322216511' post='1447972']
This is absolutely true. The API 1608 came up at £42,000. My first HOUSE was £41,500!!!!
[/quote]

Ha! Double that and add a bit! I'm pretty sure that £42k is for a 16 channel unloaded. I have a part loaded 32 channel here (part loaded with Vintage API 550a's and Harrison EQ32s, VOGs and a pair of Anamod AM660s)

If the RNP is too cheap the best bang for buck budget preamp I've used is the Rane MS1B.

[Rimskidog]

As 51mon says, gain structure will be important, especially so given the B***inger.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1322214440' post='1447924']
Ah yes but in the world of recording that is next to nothing, forgive Rimskidog, he is coming from a [b][i]seriously [/i][/b]pro studio mentallity... [snip]
[/quote]

hahah. Sorry guys. probably true. I have a warped sense of reality.

[Bilbo]

That Rane MS1B.is certainly more affordable but a brief search reveals it appears to have been mothballed. Any ideas about an alternative that is 'in the ball-park' price wise? All the literature says everything is brilliant

[funkgod]

Try this..
two mics and a realist.
1) bridge pickup through some sort of preamp ( i use my amek 9098) into desk.
2)one mic, your rho, 0r the behringer valve T47 ( ignor the boffins its £90 and sounds great)
place that about a foot or so away from from the strings above the bridge
3) good old sm58 as close as you can get to where your fingers pluck.
record your track..
then when mixing use the click of the sm58 from your fingers as a sort of compression the rise/attack time
will be sharper/ faster than other two mikes and tighten up the track, you can mix this in as wanted the t47 will give you
the warmth and abit of the room, and your transducer will give you the woodiness, once you have all 3 tracks down you can do
all sorts,
try this ,, roll off all the treb and mid from one mic and roll off all the bass and half mid boosting the treb from another mic
and hay presto a sort of crossover between the two then blend in the other mic as needed, as said you can do allsorts with this tecnique
all good fun.

[jakenewmanbass]

I have good ears which makes me happy and sad in equal measure, if there is a pick up in a recorded sound I can hear it, and HATE IT!!!

I have a (3 actually) GT67 large diaphragm condenser, into a presonus firewire mic pre/interface into logic... (soon to be pro tools) I'll sort a soundcloud thingy later and give you some examples of my home recordings. I've done a couple of online sessions with it so I guess I'm doing something right.

I'd be most interested to hear expert views on my setup and how to maximise it's usability I also have a couple of sm58s and a 57... and a gorgeous Alembic Pre for electric stuff.

When I've played upright in studios, I encounter a variety of techniques, at AIR and strongroom the engineer uses a really lovely old Neumann, at Parr st in Liverpool the guy used a Neumann in front, a big ol ribbon mic in the distance and a thing that looked like a tapered pencil pointing at my fingerboard. At the Church in Crouch end it was one of these [url="http://www.korbyaudio.com/products.html"]http://www.korbyaudi...m/products.html[/url], at Angel in Islington a large Neumann condensor, and at Sleeper Studios he used a Neumann m149. I often think about selling my bass to get something louder... then I go into the studio and it just records so well...
I've also done sessions in little jingle studios where I've been in a large vocal booth with a U87 and it sounded great despite the size of room restriction.

Bilbo, you know what your bass sounds like, and you know how you want it to sound coming back at you from monitors, as a novice engineer I would say experiment with positioning, if you can get someone else to play your bass and get on your hands and knees in front of it and with your ears find the place that it sounds most pleasing to you... mark the spot, and put the mic there, also mark the position of your bass. Keep trying mate.

Edited November 29, 2011 by jakesbass

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakesbass' timestamp='1322558034' post='1452432']
I have good ears which makes me happy and sad in equal measure, if there is a pick up in a recorded sound I can hear it, and HATE IT!!!

I have a (3 actually) GT67 large diaphragm condenser, into a presonus firewire mic pre/interface into logic... (soon to be pro tools) I'll sort a soundcloud thingy later and give you some examples of my home recordings. I've done a couple of online sessions with it so I guess I'm doing something right.

I'd be most interested to hear expert views on my setup and how to maximise it's usability I also have a couple of sm58s and a 57... and a gorgeous Alembic Pre for electric stuff.

When I've played upright in studios, I encounter a variety of techniques, at AIR and strongroom the engineer uses a really lovely old Neumann, at Parr st in Liverpool the guy used a Neumann in front, a big ol ribbon mic in the distance and a thing that looked like a tapered pencil pointing at my fingerboard. At the Church in Crouch end it was one of these [url="http://www.korbyaudio.com/products.html"]http://www.korbyaudi...m/products.html[/url], at Angel in Islington a large Neumann condensor, and at Sleeper Studios he used a Neumann m149. I often think about selling my bass to get something louder... then I go into the studio and it just records so well...
I've also done sessions in little jingle studios where I've been in a large vocal booth with a U87 and it sounded great despite the size of room restriction.

[i]Bilbo, you know what your bass sounds like, and you know how you want it to sound coming back at you from monitors, as a novice engineer I would say experiment with positioning, if you can get someone else to play your bass and get on your hands and knees in front of it and with your ears find the place that it sounds most pleasing to you... mark the spot, and put the mic there, also mark the position of your bass. Keep trying mate.[/i]
[/quote]

I 100% agree that mic position is at least as important as everything else, a few inches, or a few degrees of rotation can really change the timbre of the sound you pick up.

There are a million ways to skin this cat, as Jake points outy every studio he works in has a different plan to do exactly the same thing.

Did that weird looking mic look like this Jake?



If so its an Earthworks, and really rather spiffy!

And Korby stuff makes me go "Ding, dong...."

Edited November 29, 2011 by 51m0n

[charic]

The Earthworks stuff is fantastic on drums.

Unfortunately the only time I recorded a double bass I only had one mic to hand so didn't get to experiment much. However the Neumann TLM103 I used sounded fantastic.

[jakenewmanbass]

51imon... that's the fella!

[Bilbo]

This thread is now the best ever on Basschat!

I think the main thing is to spend time and thought on the issue. Mic positioning is proving to be an interesting 'diversion' but I can see all of these options being worthy of investigation to some degree or another. Thanks, everyone, for all of your input.

[jakenewmanbass]

Sorry it's taken a while, but i've had some electric bass recordings to do...
anyhoo, here is my recording set up, this is the bass into a Groove Tube GT67 valve condenser, the pre amp is a presonus X Max firewire/micpre and it's going completely unadulterated in to logic.

http://soundcloud.com/jake-newman/basschat-sample-recording

The mic is 3 way switchable (cardioid with hyper option, omni, figure 8) and has a low end cut option, it is set to cardioid with no low cut. I placed the mic directly in front of the bridge at about 18 inches I find that if it's too direct to the f holes it can woof.

The room is still hard surfaced as I haven't had time to do any bass trapping so I have draped some blankets about to cut reflection a bit (I can hear it tho) It does have a nice pine floor and I think that lends itself to the DB sound anyway.

The recording... LOL, I just noodled around on a blues for ages, 1 take, no prisoners taken so warts and all.

Edited November 30, 2011 by jakesbass

[lowdown]

[quote name='jakesbass' timestamp='1322695020' post='1454756']
The recording... LOL, I just noodled around on a blues for ages, 1 take, no prisoners taken so warts and all.
[/quote]

Hey Jake, nice sound on the Bass. The natural decay of the instrument is lovely and it sounds like its not set up silly and very low, action wise.
Nice full and articulate sound.
Solid consistent intonation makes it much easier to listen to solo Bass for six minutes....


Garry

[jakenewmanbass]

Thanks Garry, that bass records so well, it has dynanism in all the right places so it's a joy to play and yes I have worked on my intonation quite a bit
I can't believe you got through it all tho
I have said this earlier but on gigs that bass is a bit quiet and lacking in presence so I sometimes think about getting something with a larger fundamental, then I record it again and it sounds so lovely.

[51m0n]

You can hear plenty of room in that Jake, lovely bass, very strong "Puhh" at the attack of every note (esp in the lowest octave), then a nice warm round tone. I always find that buzz db's have really distracting, although it is a legitimate part of the sound and disappears in a mix.

Treating that room a little with some basstrapping, broadband absorption and diffusion would make it sound great for tracking though. Not that its awful right now, just 'there' quite a bit.