Your thoughts on 33" scale 5 string basses?

[Mike]

Hi everyone!

I'm trying to hammer down the last few specs on a Shuker Jazz 5 Jon has already started to build me. My 4 string is SO magnificent, I'm having a 5 string matching one made - some changes in terms of pickups and colour but generally the same.

Now, I've been researching 33" scale. Basically, I have pretty small hands! I do play a Smith 6 but it does feel very big to me. I sold a Yamaha TRB6P because it was so wide. Even a Warwick Streamer Stage I V was quite big. I've noted that a lot of big name companies make 33" 5 & 6 strings - I just wondered if anyone has any experience with them? I know Janek Gwizdala plays a 33" 6 string. I'm thinking it might be more comfortable for me, and make the transition when I'm playing from 4 to 5 a little easier. Jon says there should be no problem with the low B either.


Look forward to your input!


Regards,


Mike

Edited March 27, 2008 by Mike

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Mike' post='164257' date='Mar 27 2008, 07:58 AM']Hi everyone!

I'm trying to hammer down the last few specs on a Shuker Jazz 5 Jon has already started to build me. My 4 string is SO magnificent, I'm having a 5 string matching one made - some changes in terms of pickups and colour but generally the same.

Now, I've been researching 33" scale. Basically, I have pretty small hands! I do play a Smith 6 but it does feel very big to me. I sold a Yamaha TRB6P because it was so wide. Even a Warwick Streamer Stage I V was quite big. I've noted that a lot of big name companies make 33" 5 & 6 strings - I just wondered if anyone has any experience with them? I know Janek Gwizdala plays a 33" 6 string. I'm thinking it might be more comfortable for me, and make the transition when I'm playing from 4 to 5 a little easier. Jon says there should be no problem with the low B either.


Look forward to your input!


Regards,


Mike[/quote]

Hi Mike

No personal experience of 33" scale myself, but thought this might be of interest to you:

[url="http://www.munkio.com/music/music_seibass.html"]http://www.munkio.com/music/music_seibass.html[/url]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16081"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16081[/url]

Cheers

Nik

[alexclaber]

Personally I wouldn't go shorter than 34" with a low B string, the tension is poor enough at 34". However, lot of people are happy with 34" B strings, which I'm not! Before you make any decisions I would recommend finding out how a 33" scale low B feels - you can simulate this fairly accurately by tuning a 34" scale B down by about 2/3 of a semitone. I did the opposite with testing a 36" scale (tuning up by a semitone) and really liked the result.

The other issue is one of technique - I calculated that playing a 36" scale is like playing a 34" scale a fret lower down (so a 33" scale will be like playing a pattern not quite a fret higher). To me that seems an almost imperceptible difference and I don't think I have big hands, pretty average in fact - I do have quite nimble left hand technique though. I actually find my 36" scale 5-string easier to play than my 34" scale 4-string, despite having played that four for almost nine years and the five for only six weeks. The wider neck (though nothing like a six) has a flatter profile and the combination of width and flatness makes my left hand technique much more fluid, with thumb almost always in the 'right' place and hand pivoting around that elegantly. I am amazed by this, I expected the 36" five to throw up some big challenges but it hasn't at all, apart from a bit of muting fun when strumming chords (not an issue for 99% of bassists!)

The tone is a whole other thing - for my tastes I hugely prefer the BIG sound of the longer scale but some people like the tone of 30" scale basses, so horses for courses and all that.

Alex

[geoffbassist]

danger,danger! ive never seen a 33" with a b, janeks 5 is E-C. I havnt seen his new 6 but ive seen loads of 34" basses with poor b strings. Id go 34" with 17mm string spacing...
good luck!

[geoffbassist]

saying that there is one i can think of, Lincoln Goines has a 33" with low B. Its a fodera though!

[chris_b]

The tone of a low note seems to be improved by lengthening and thickening the string. That is why pianos and harps are the shape they are.
I deal with a 35" scale by moving my left hand up and down the neck much more than I did on the 34" bass. String bass players seem quite happy with even more left hand movement. I would imagine small hands/fingers are affected more by the width of the neck than the length.
My suggestion is to get a thin neck and the longer scale.

[ped]

Let me know if you get tired of that Smith, Mike...

Nothing to add here other than the fact that on a bass I don't think scale makes much difference. It seems to be more about the rigidity of the neck and how it reacts with the body, and the electronics. I have had 34, 35 and 36" basses all of which had varying B strings - the one on the 36" wasn't the best of them all either, the 34" was. I say go for it - at the end of the day comfort is what it is really about. Even if 34" does sound quantifiably different (one part in a hundred or so) if you aren't comfy on it then that will be that!

[Merton]

Doesn't Eude have a 33" scale 5-string Shuker?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='ped' post='164347' date='Mar 27 2008, 10:31 AM']Nothing to add here other than the fact that on a bass I don't think scale makes much difference.[/quote]

That hypothesis is easily testable with retuning and/or a capo. Once you're comparing significantly different basses with different scale lengths then there are too many variables to make an accurate judgement. Both my basses have wenge thru-necks so the variability should be less.

Alex

[P-T-P]

Hmmm, doesn't sound like something I'd want to risk just going on opinion. From my experience, the biggest problem with the Low B on many basses is that they often don't sound like they belong to the same bass as the other 4 strings and the only time I've not noticed that is on basses with a longer scale length than standard 34".

I have very small hands and have no problems with the 35" scale on my Lakland 5s. However, on the JO5 I used to own, the extra length was more obvious because of the way the bass sat on a strap. Compared to a DJ5, the JO5's bridge is about an inch further form the edge of the bass, hence when it was on a strap, fret one was an inch further away than I was used to.

The extention of the upper horn will also make a difference in the way the overall length of the neck feels, the longer the upper horn, the closer the nut will be. The extended scale length of 35" over 34" I've never really noticed in terms of distance between the frets and that makes sense as we're talking about a very small distance increase on each fret.

Like you, I don't like the TRB 5 and 6 necks or the Warwick ones. I don't like the Fender ones either. I did however like the one on my Status 5 (offset oval profile) and I was quite partial to the neck on OldGit's Shuker P5 which, IIRC, was based on an Ibanez BTB-5 neck.

In the end, the conclusion I've come to for me is that the profile of the neck and the way the bass sits on a strap is far more important to me than the scale length.

Maybe Mr. Shuker could comepensate for the extra scale length by placing the bridge as far back as possible and/or drawing out the top horn by an inch or so. Maybe a shallower profile on the neck and closer string spacing at the nut would combine to give you the tonal benefits of 35" scale but with sufficient comfort.

Interestingly, Lakland also make a point about the arrangement of the pegs on their 5 string headstocks with a full 2" between nut and Low B, plus their hefty string retainer right behind the nut. How much they contribute to the tone I have my doubts, but might be another consideration to make.

[Count Bassy]

I've never tried them, but Birdsong make a 30" 5 string (though they do some weird things on it), and Landing make a 32" 5 string. These are both high quality, low volume builders, and I'm guessing that they wouldn't bothetr to make these if they didn't work and hence couldn't sell them.

I'm guessing that a lot of it comes down to correct string selection. If you put a standard string onto a shorter scale it will be correspondingly 'slack'. Personally I don't find that a problem, but if I did I'm sure a change of strings would address it.

Having said that I'm quite willing to accept that a 32" and a 36" will sound different, but which is best is a different question, probably with out a definitive answer.

Clive

[gypsymoth]

my 5 is a 33 - originally a high b, the prior owner restrung it/cut the nut for low B.
as noted above, tune your (is your existing 4 a 33"? - if it's a 34 and you are happy, why go shorter?) 33" four down to B and see if you like it. I expect you will need a 135 or so to be reasonably happy with the results - and that you'll be thinking a 34 or 35 would be preferable sonically. yes, scale length only makes a difference on playability for the low notes, but as that is why you are going for a 5 - it could be an issue for you. but if you are just going to go "boom" on occasion - playability isn't much of an issue anyway.
choice of woods & number of laminations to make a stable neck with a profile/length that YOU find comfortable ....isn't that the point of a custom build? if you are OK with a 34, the right profile for a 34" 5 string shouldn't be an issue.

Edited March 27, 2008 by gypsymoth

[alexclaber]

[quote name='P-T-P' post='164389' date='Mar 27 2008, 11:46 AM']In the end, the conclusion I've come to for me is that the profile of the neck and the way the bass sits on a strap is far more important to me than the scale length.[/quote]

I suspect that is the same for most bassists but they don't realise it. For instance Warwick Thumbs seem to have incredibly long necks but they're just 34" scale and often quite narrow at the nut. Get the top horn close to the 12th fret so you can reach the 1st fret without stretching, combine that with a left hand friendly neck profile and scale length becomes almost irrelevant to technique.

Bear in mind that we're only talking about 1" which is less than the difference between moving a fret higher. I'd be amazed if you can perceive that difference in fret spacing.

Alex

[gypsymoth]

another point in favor of a 34" scale is string choice - it gets rather limited in medium scale. I suppose a clever designer could work around that by altering overall string length, but this has been a bit of a problem for me.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='gypsymoth' post='164640' date='Mar 27 2008, 05:23 PM']another point in favor of a 34" scale is string choice - it gets rather limited in medium scale. I suppose a clever designer could work around that by altering overall string length, but this has been a bit of a problem for me.[/quote]

I agree totally about string choice, I have a problem getting strings for my Modulus, most strings fit OK, but some, D'addario and La bella for example I have to buy in extra long scale, there are strings that I'd like to try that won't fit.

I don't have a problem playing my Modulus which is 35" and my Sei which is only 34", there's not that much difference, if you compare the necks side by side, the frets are pretty much in the same place until you get down around and past the 12th.

[modulusq6]

To my ears there isn't really much of a difference between 34" and 35" scale basses, but I think when you get down to a 33" you might start hearing a difference.

Don't both Matt Garrisons and Janek Gwizdalas basses have hipshot detuners fitted to them, being 33" scale basses wouldn't the E string get very floppy when detuned.

I really think that you ought to actually try a 33" ERB scale bass before you order.

[matty589]

The B-string is also about tension - with a given scale length, string mass and pitch a string has fixed tension.
The main problem with a lot of 5 and 6-string basses is that the B feels floppy. There are only two ways to make it feel more tense -

1) increase the scale length or
2) use a thicker string.

A shorter scale length works OK down to a low E, but below that you'll need a .135+ B-string to maintain tension. Otherwise the B will sound and feel like it is on a different bass compared to the E/A/D/G (or C). A taperwound B gives you more definition at the expense of a less fat tone (plus palm-muting doesn't work so well). If you go to .140 or above the string starts to lose it's character and again sounds like it belongs on another bass. I have tried 33" 6-strings and 36" 6-strings, with the same strings, and the difference in feel and tension was huge.

Dingwall took the tension approach and made a bass that has pretty much equal tension across all the strings. In order to do that they had to increase the scale length (like the bass notes on a grand piano) - hence the fanned frets. I have played hundreds of basses and the best B's I heard were on a Modulus Quantum 6 (35"), Sadowsky MV5 (34"), Warwick Thumb (34") and Ken Smith BSR (34") - I have played a few Foderas and found them to be nice, but the only one that had a tight B was the Anthony Jackson contrabass (36").

[Kev]

if you dont mind playin with real heavy strings, or at least a heavy B, then it would be alrite i guess

[Rich]

A Status Kingbass 5 with the silly 'bendwell' is 32", I've not heard good or bad about them though. Anybody?

[alexclaber]

Quite a few people played my 36" scale RIM Custom 5 at the bash and most of them didn't realise it was longer than normal. As someone who never played 5-string before, apart from trying numerous 34" fives in shops and being deeply unimpressed by the low B, it would be interesting to hear whether other bassists think the extra length was worth it for the tone and feel of the low B?

Alex

[mcgraham]

[quote]Quite a few people played my 36" scale RIM Custom 5 at the bash and most of them didn't realise it was longer than normal[/quote]

+1

I was one of those people. I'd always heard that a 36" scale made 'all' the difference with tension, but that the stretch was just too much. After trying Alex's bass I say that the latter one is hogwash. I felt slightly more tension (in my hands) than my normal bass but I think that was due to his bass having a higher than action than mine than anything else.

You've got a great bass Alex!

Mark

[wotnwhy]

Eude's Shuker 6 is 33" scale isn't it? he seems to like it.

[urb]

Hey guys - yes my Sei is 33" scale and I really love it. It is all a matter of personal taste and what sort of music you play and so I guess for a jazzy, funky type of style like mine it's all good - for me it's about comfort and flexibility as much as tone - I've played some long gigs in the recent past were I've had to sit on the low end for ages and it's a killer on the old left arm - I've played for years and years and there's no getting used to it IMO - it's down to pure stamina. Maybe I;m just a total wuss... you decide - anyway - the 33 scale makes the whole bass feel compact - everything just feels easier to reach. As for tone it is ture you won't get a HUGE sound from my low B but I can live with that - as long as the string competes with the others for tone and clarity I don't mind - I can use heavier strings if it becomes an issue. On the short bit of recording I've done recently with the bass I noticed that when I varied the plucking style - i.e. went between pizzicato to a more open sustained note - and let that ring the string + note seemed to bloom - a whole load of other overtones suddenly appeared - and it sounded rich and full.

So that's my take on it - I've played 34 scale for years with my Thumb's long neck giving me more and more agro - plus added neck dive and general weight of the bass - I'm basically a happy bunny right now. I've tried playing longer scales - and 6 strings - and longer scale 6 strings and I've found they just aren't for me - I have nothing against them - I just can't play them I like to play.

I say try it - you might like it

Mike

[SJA]

Nathan East used to have a Yamaha Motion 5 string (with low B ) that was 32in scale- he plays it on his Contemporary Electric Bass vid.

but he's since gone for standard long scale and extra long scale on his basses.

Edited April 9, 2008 by SJA

[Mikey D]

I had a quick go on Dominique Dipiazza's 5 which was 33" and that was excellent. He seems to make it ok.