PA Help - quick question

[Walker]

Yes, lots of vocal harmonies I'm afraid!

None of the guitarists use backline - straight into PA via their FX/DI as they are acoustic instruments (guitars, mandolin, banjo). At the moment, my bass rig provides all my bass.

I've had a quick look at the Mackies you mentioned and the review I read said that if i wanted to put my bass through it, I would need the subwoofer too. From what I've told you about our band, do you reckon we'd need a powered subwoofer as well as the mackie 450's?

Sorry about all the questions - I want to get it right this time! When we started, there were 4 of us and we were playing in tiny pub backrooms. Now venues and crowds are getting a touch bigger, so we want to be equipped to play to 100-150 people. For example - this weekend we did a golf club function with 100+ up-for-it people dancing. Volume was absolutely fine but the room was wide and we were playing across it rather than down the length of it.

Cheers again!

Chris

[brensabre79]

Hey Walker, I would keep the bass seperate. The more you put through the PA the harder it will be to make everything clear. Bass needs a lot more power than vocals and guitars etc. too. I would save the money on the sub and use your bass amp instead.

For the setup you have theres nothing wrong with submixing for now. There are many audiophiles who will tell you why this isn't a great idea, but in the real world sometimes you have to make do. But its better to have everyting in the same mixer , not least because its just easier to set levels if they are all together.

I personally don't like combined Mixer/amps because when time comes to upgrade the mixer you also have to upgrade the amp even if you don't need to. however they are a great portable solution for small pubs etc. so nothing wrong with that. My function band uses a 16ch Behringer mixer, we got for less than £100 s/h and that goes into one line input of our Peavey Mixer/Amp until we can afford a new amp, and a graphic etc.

What I'm saying is, if the amp part is meeting your needs and you just need a few extra channels, you don't need to invest in lots of gear all of a sudden. Get a mixer with all the channels you need off eBay or somwhere, run the powered wedges from the mixer and connect the main output of the mixer to your Yamaha.

You then have a Mixer and an Amp (with some added mixing capabilities that you're not using right now).

job done!

[Walker]

Thanks brensabre79.

It's good to hear you have come up against similar issues and found a solution that works. That's the second mention a Behringer mixer has had - they certainly seem good value. I'll check them out on ebay tonight.

[thumperbob 2002]

mmmmm good one this- I suppose If you are quiet on stage you could use your own bass amp as a sub and keep the stage volume low for the vox to pitch correctly. My main thought would be to have the best Front of House sound possible with your rig. Start picking up bargains from ebay and sort of cobble together a better rig over time- it wont be expensive and if you have paid an astute price for gear you will always be able to sell it on when you upgrade.

When I think of the terrible gear I have had in the past- always seems we were able to get a good sound out of it ( within reason ). I would only buy a behringer if the price is right- however I think this mixer is better than the yamaha 16 track I have- though looks fragile.

[bremen]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1322575952' post='1452901']
Hey Walker, I would keep the bass seperate. The more you put through the PA the harder it will be to make everything clear. Bass needs a lot more power than vocals and guitars etc. too. I would save the money on the sub and use your bass amp instead.

[/quote]

This, most definitely. I hate the sound of a small PA struggling with bass and kick drum (why do all pub soundmen do this?). It just brings on a headache.

Another top tip: get a good flightcase for the mixer if you want it to last more than a handful of gigs.

[brensabre79]

Yes the Behringer was cheap because Behringer stuff is cheap to begin with, secondhand even more so. Price was quite a factor for this setup, but you know Behringer stuff isn't bad at all for the money. Its the low end of the high end if you get me - better than a lot of entry level stuff by far.

But that doesn't mean you have to get a Behringer desk. Spirit, Mackie, Yamaha, Studiomaster etc. etc. all do little club mixers. Don't forget though if you need reverb and its not included in the desk you'll also need outboard.

This sort of thing should be more than adequate though... 4 mics & 4 lines in for guitars etc...under £50 at the moment...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Behringer-Eurorack-UB1622FX-PRO-Analog-Mixer-/150705279887?pt=UK_Mixers&hash=item2316bc138f

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1322582493' post='1453094']
But that doesn't mean you have to get a Behringer desk. Spirit, Mackie, Yamaha, Studiomaster etc. etc. all do little club mixers. Don't forget though if you need reverb and its not included in the desk you'll also need outboard.
[/quote]

I have to say, I own plenty of cheap and cheerful Behringer stuff so I'm not snobbish about it...but I've had desks by all those brands, and I must say the Yamaha has sounded sweetest, closer to say Allen and Heath (a proper 'mid-level' desk) than a Behringer. Oh yes, I definitely agree about keeping the bass out of the PA.

Edited November 29, 2011 by LawrenceH

[Monckyman]

Some of the powered mixers can be useful, though I too favour separates for flexibility and easy upgrade paths.
Usually on the powered jobs you can route various outputs to the amp section, for instance, if you have decent active foh speakers, the amp built in to the mixer can be switched to power the monitor sends so you can use two passive monitor wedges.
If a Graphic EQ is built in,this can be routed to FOH or monitors also.
one thing to watch for though is noise, and phantom power issues. not a problem if you don`t have active(powered) D.I boxes or any condenser mics, but still needs checking.
I recently used a powered Behringer and I use a Shure SM86 which needs phantom power, however, when I switched the power on, all the other inputs became slightly fuzzy and unuseable.
So those cheaper bargains may bite you in the bum if you don`t watch out.

[Walker]

So, my bass rig should provide all of the bass for our gigs? Nothing into the PA at all?

Keeping in mind guitarist don't use backline amps and as our current PA is 250W + 250W, what sort of power should I be looking at for my bass rig then?

What about if we upgraded to a 1k PA?

Thanks!

Chris

[brensabre79]

Not sure what size venues you're playing in Chris, our rock covers band plays mostly in pubs, with drums and 2 loud electric guitars and our PA is 250w + 250w - but due to speaker impedance it actually runs at 125w + 125w and is more than adequate for the vocals at most gigs. Occasionally in larger places it struggles, but I have a more powerful amp (800w) for those.

I don't think you'll need a 1KW Pa unless you're playing pretty loud in larger venues (most of which have their own sound system). To be honest with all those acoustic instruments you're likely to get more problems with feedback if you go as loud as a 1k rig will take you unless you start getting into ringing out with graphic eqs etc.

From what it sounds like your band is largely acoustic so I don't think you'll need that much power at all. A 200W bass amp should be more than enough if its just handling the bass duties.

And the 500w amp you have should easily cope with the volume for vocals and acoustic guitars (if thats what you're getting from it - check the speaker impedance isn't halving it - e.g. 500w into 4 ohms, 250w into 8 ohms means with 8 ohm speaker you'll get 250w total not 500w...)

If you have the cash and space to lug around a larger rig, you will get more clarity at the top end of the volume range because you're not driving it so hard but if you are on a budget then I would invest in a decent mixer, EQ, FX, mics etc. first before going for more power. you'd be amazed what levels you can get from a low powered rig if you use it right. And remember doubling the watts doesn't mean doubling the volume!

Thats my 2p anyway

[Walker]

Thank you for that brensabre79.

Seems we play same size as you, pubs and small function rooms - with the occassional marquee or festival stage!

Our PA system specs are 250W + 250W @4ohms and my current bass rig, a PJB Suitcase and 4B ext cab is 300w @4ohms. Now I'll be honest - I don't understand what those figures mean! I assume that's enough bass power to match the PA ?

I think the decent Yamaha mixer with some FX is the way to go after reading all the comments and the £'s we have available.

We've no amabition (or talent!) to play huge venues and as you say, house PA's will be used anyway. We played a festival last summer and went straight into their gear with no issues although the mandolin and banjo threw the sound guys for while!

Your 2p worth is very welcome!

[Walker]

BTW, a workmate's brother (a sound engineer) pointed me to great reference booklet freebie:

[i][b][url="http://www.soundcraft.com/support/gtm_booklet.aspx"]The Soundcraft Guide To Mixing Booklet[/url][/b]
"This handy written tutorial explains what a mixer is, what the functions are, and the basics of setting up and using a PA system.[/i]"

It answered lots of questions for me in a language I could understand!

May be useful to others?

[Lozz196]

That is a very good guide. Easy to understand, and some helpful tips.

[thumperbob 2002]

I think playing to 150+ you will need at least a 1k rig- not really for the volume but more for headroom- by putting everything into the pa you will have more control and will sound better. Your bass rig is fine- no need for anything else but a couple more active speaker cabs- such as the Mackie 450s will make one hell of a difference for not much money- say just one gigs worth of fee.

If you sound good it is likely, especially for function work, that you will be re-booked. Makes financial sense and you will play better too, knowing that you sound good- and that the audience can hear you.

Nowadays a 1k rig is tiny. My band and the very least uses a HK 1.1k rig at each side- mind you we are a 7 piece soul band with everything going through the FOH- but still have backline for the majority of the bass/ guitar/drums.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1322664386' post='1454134']
by putting everything into the pa you will have more control and will sound better.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that it will sound better necessarily if everyone is mic'ed up. It places huge demand on the PA, and it has to be up to the task or sound quality suffers. Similarly the mix is much more complicated as you now have to balance backline noise against a load of mics, all open and with potential for feedback and phase issues. You're now talking about getting a dedicated sound engineer involved or at the very least getting pretty tech-savvy yourself. There's merit to keeping it simple for small/medium gigs - less complication means less to go wrong.

FWIW I also don't think there's much between the SRM450s and the Yamaha passives that I've used in the past, in fact if anything the Yamahas have had the edge for vocals. Adding subs and an active crossover will make more of a difference if you go the full band route, or a decent pair of 3-way top speakers.

[brensabre79]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1322664386' post='1454134']
I think playing to 150+ you will need at least a 1k rig- not really for the volume but more for headroom- by putting everything into the pa you will have more control and will sound better.
[/quote]
This is true IF you have a large PA AND someone out front to control it. Otherwise someone has to stop playing to adjust levels - I know, this is my job in most of the pub bands I play with (never should have mentioned I got a degree in audio engineering). So i try and let the guitars/keys sort their levels out themselves (sometimes I can tell them to go up or down, but what use am I on stage?) and just have vocals through the PA, clearer, simpler.

For a pub / small venue gig you're playing to less than 100 people in a confined space. Also the OP is talking about essentially an acoustic band. So I would say 1,000W is complete overkill.

Yes a soul band with horns etc. playing 150 - 200 capacity venues will need a bit more power + backline, for headroom, for peaks and for clarity. As soon as you start putting mics in the kick drum you're getting into the league of amplifying bass frequencies and much of the same applies in terms of power, adding subs etc.

Its a case of Horses for courses

[pete.young]

[quote name='Walker' timestamp='1322654920' post='1453951']

We've no amabition (or talent!) to play huge venues and as you say, house PA's will be used anyway. We played a festival last summer and went straight into their gear with no issues although the mandolin and banjo threw the sound guys for while!

[/quote]

Yes, that does tend to happen with acoustic instruments - usually they like a challenge!

I play cittern/mandolin/fiddle in a Pogues covers band, along with another guy who plays mostly banjo plus a bit of mandolin, and we both find that the biggest challenge is being audible on stage over the drummer, who is loud even when using hot-rods.

We both use acoustic combos (he has AER, I have Roland) and DI the output from them into the PA, partly to improve the monitoring aspects, partly because the piezo transducers sound better through the amp pre-amp stage, and partly to balance up the sound from all the different instruments. Also, you can stick them on a speaker pole and get them at ear level!

That way, when we do end up on a festival stage with a soundman he doesn't have to do much to cope with instrument changes.