Is Talent Inherited?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1322243359' post='1448605']
^ That's the wonderful thing about scientific research. For every "right" answer, there's an opposite. Like this one:

[url="http://geniusblog.davidshenk.com/"]http://geniusblog.davidshenk.com/[/url]


[/quote]

Shenk isn't a scientist.

[AttitudeCastle]

If you know what and how to practise then 10 minutes of practise a night is plenty, and will do you better than 3 hours of faffing.

I know that from expericence!

No-one in my family is musical except my brother and I, I took up trombone, he then took up guitar then i also took up bass and piano and then stopped playing piano

I think it shined through as i completely let my self down in my music examination for my Trombone yesterday after 11 months of hard practise (minimum hour a day as i get insanely jittery and nervous for performance exams) and i balls up everything. Though thats not totally related that's performace skills. [end stress rant]

It's not gentic, if your parents were world class musicans but you were never exposed to it i don't think you'd be a musical wizz even if your folks were mozarts and child proidgies!

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1322168137' post='1447586']
+ 1 EssentialTension... How does the OP come to the conclusion that the child must have been born with talent that was passed on from the parents.

The only thing the OP's observations highlight is the theory that multiple pieces of research into children with musical ability have concluded...

Nurture and a musical enviroment are the conditions needed in order for any individual to progress musically from an early age.

Perfect pitch is probably the most obvious example. We are all born with the ability to train our ears to recognise frequencies as different pitches (in the same way we are all born to recognise different light frequencies as colours), but we need an environment in which it is developed (i.e. through the encouragement of musical parents who recognise the skill and can develop the ear through training) and consistent practice, otherwise we lose the skill as we grow older and use it less regularly.

Those are just scientific truths... whether "talent" within any individual helps this process to happen at a higher speed with less need for practice is simply speculation really.
[/quote]

Also, Perfect and relative pitch don't develop you either have it or you don't. Always that way or never that way. Though something akin to the two can come with pure experience but perfect pitch it self, or relative pitch? You can't learn,

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1322259472' post='1448819']
Also, Perfect and relative pitch don't develop you either have it or you don't. Always that way or never that way. Though something akin to the two can come with pure experience but perfect pitch it self, or relative pitch? You can't learn,
[/quote]
It's not at all as simple as you either have it or you don't and you can't learn it.
[quote] Wikipedia:

[b]Influence by music experience[/b]

Absolute pitch sense appears to be influenced by cultural exposure to music, especially in the familiarization of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament"]equal-tempered[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_scale"]C-major scale[/url]. Most of the absolute listeners that were tested in this respect identified the C-major tones more reliably and, except for B, more quickly than the five "black key" tones,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-17"][18][/url][/sup] which corresponds to the higher prevalence of these tones in ordinary musical experience. One study of Dutch non-musicians also demonstrated a bias toward using C-major tones in ordinary speech, especially on syllables related to emphasis.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-18"][19][/url][/sup]

[b]Linguistics[/b]

Absolute pitch is more common among speakers of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_language"]tonal languages[/url] such as most dialects of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language"]Chinese[/url] or [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language"]Vietnamese[/url], which depend heavily on pitch variation across single words for [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicon"]lexical[/url] meaning (e.g. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Mandarin"]Mandarin[/url] with four possible pitch variations, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Cantonese"]Cantonese[/url] with six or seven (depending on dialect), [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Min_Language"]Minnan[/url] with seven or eight (depending on dialect), and Vietnamese with six.)[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-jasa138th-19"][20][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-jasa148th-20"][21][/url][/sup] Speakers of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Tibetan_languages"]Sino-Tibetan languages[/url] have been reported to speak a word in the same absolute pitch (within a quarter-tone) on different days; it has therefore been suggested that absolute pitch may be acquired by infants when they learn to speak in a tonal language[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu-2004-21"][22][/url][/sup] (and possibly also by infants when they learn to speak in a pitch stress language). However, the brains of tonal-language speakers do not naturally process musical sound as language;[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-22"][23][/url][/sup] perhaps such individuals may be more likely to acquire absolute pitch for musical tones when they later receive musical training. Also many native speakers of a tone language, even those with little musical training, are observed to sing the same piece in the same key consistently. Among music students of East Asian ethnic heritage, those who speak a tone language very fluently have a much higher prevalence of absolute pitch than those who speak only nontone language.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-phil-jasa-2006-23"][24][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu-2009-24"][25][/url][/sup]
It is possible that level-tone languages which are found in Africa—such as [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoruba_language"]Yoruba[/url],[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-25"][26][/url][/sup] with three pitch levels, and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mambila"]Mambila[/url],[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-26"][27][/url][/sup] with four—may be better suited to study the role of absolute pitch in speech than the pitch and contour tone languages of East Asia.
Further, speakers of European languages have been found to make use of an absolute, though subconscious, pitch memory when speaking.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-27"][28][/url][/sup]

[sup]... [/sup]
[b]Special populations[/b]

The prevalence of absolute pitch is higher among those who are blind from birth as a result of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_nerve_hypoplasia"]optic nerve hypoplasia[/url].
The prevalence of absolute pitch is considerably higher among individuals with early childhood in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asia"]East Asia[/url].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-greg-39"][40][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2006-40"][41][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2006b-41"][42][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2007-42"][43][/url][/sup] While this difference might seem to be genetic in origin;[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-zlab-43"][44][/url][/sup] individuals of East Asian ancestry who are born or reared in the United States or Canada are significantly less likely to develop absolute pitch than those raised in East Asia.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2007-42"][43][/url][/sup] This presents the likelihood that the difference is explained by cultural experience rather than genetic heritage. Language may be an important factor; many East Asians speak tonal languages such as Mandarin and Cantonese, while others (such as those in Japan and certain provinces of Korea) speak pitch accent languages, and the prevalence of absolute pitch may be partly explained by exposure to pitches together with meaningful musical labels very early in life.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2006-40"][41][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2006b-41"][42][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2007-42"][43][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-deu_2004-44"][45][/url][/sup]
Absolute pitch ability has higher prevalence among those with [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_Syndrome"]Williams Syndrome[/url][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-lenhoff-45"][46][/url][/sup] and those with an [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum_disorder"]autism spectrum disorder[/url], with rates as high as 30% claimed, stating that the rate among musicians in general is far lower.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Sacks.2C_O._2007-46"][47][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-heaton-47"][48][/url][/sup] [sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-48"][49][/url][/sup]

[b]Nature vs. nurture[/b]

Absolute pitch might be achievable by any human being during a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period"]critical period[/url] of auditory development,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Sakakibara.2C_2004-49"][50][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Chin.2C_2003-50"][51][/url][/sup] after which period [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive"]cognitive[/url] strategies favor global and relational processing. Proponents of the critical-period theory agree that the presence of absolute pitch ability is dependent on learning, but there is disagreement about whether training causes absolute skills to occur[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Oura_.26_Eguchi.2C_1982-51"][52][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Sakakibara.2C_1999-52"][53][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Miyazaki.2C_2006-53"][54][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Lau.2C_2004-54"][55][/url][/sup] or lack of training causes absolute perception to be overwhelmed and obliterated by relative perception of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_intervals"]musical intervals[/url].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Abraham_1901-55"][56][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Saffran_and_Griepentrog.2C_2001-56"][57][/url][/sup]
There may be a genetic locus for absolute pitch ability,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Theusch.2C_E._et_al.-57"][58][/url][/sup] which locus would suggest a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics"]genetic[/url] basis for its presence or absence.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Drayna.2C_D._et_al.-58"][59][/url][/sup] A genetic basis, should it exist, might represent either a predisposition for learning the ability or signal the likelihood of its spontaneous occurrence.
An unequivocal resolution to the ongoing debate would require [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_experiment"]controlled experiments[/url] that are both impractical and unethical. Researchers have been trying to teach absolute pitch ability in laboratory settings for more than a century,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-Meyer_1899-59"][60][/url][/sup] and various commercial absolute-pitch training courses have been offered to the public since the early 1900s.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-60"][61][/url][/sup] However, no adult has ever been documented to have acquired absolute listening ability,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-61"][62][/url][/sup] as all adults who have undergone AP training have failed, when formally tested, to show "an unqualified level of accuracy... comparable to that of AP possessors".[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch#cite_note-62"][63][/url][/sup]
[/quote]

[skankdelvar]

I think it's really rather nice when people 'inherit' talent or skills, whether through their genes or the environment in which they are raised. For one thing, it gives parent and child a common interest and something to talk about at tea-time.

As has been no doubt already been noted, infant prodigies and musical dynasties are nothing new. Mozart, the Bachs and the Strausses, Tim and Jeff Buckley. And it works sideways too - The Watersons, The Everley Bros, The Andrews sisters all benefit from a sort of sibling musicality. There's definitely a force at work in these instances

Mind you, the Gallaghers, Jakob Dylan and the Lennon offspring offer a disturbing counter-argument.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited November 27, 2011 by skankdelvar

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1322352578' post='1449940']
I think it's really rather nice when people 'inherit' talent or skills, whether through their genes or the environment in which they are raised. For one thing, it gives parent and child a common interest and something to talk about at tea-time.

As has been no doubt already been noted, infant prodigies and musical dynasties are nothing new. Mozart, the Bachs and the Strausses, Tim and Jeff Buckley. And it works sideways too - The Watersons, The Everley Bros, The Andrews sisters all benefit from a sort of sibling musicality. There's definitely a force at work in these instances

Mind you, the Gallaghers, Jakob Dylan and the Lennon offspring offer a disturbing counter-argument.[/quote]
You forgot the Chuckle Brothers.

[RhysP]

What about Bros?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1322353096' post='1449950']
What about Bros?
[/quote]
They certainly proved a few people wrong.

[discreet]

Great piano fail at 3:18.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MExljPsMEbA[/media]

Edited November 27, 2011 by discreet

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1322352921' post='1449946']
You forgot the Chuckle Brothers.
[/quote]

I was [i]trying[/i] to forget the Chuckle Brothers and I had [i]nearly[/i] succeeded In any event, I think some people dislike the idea of inherited talent because it is Mother Nature's riposte to those 'socialist' fellows and their amusing egalitarianism.

Either way, inherited wealth trumps everything else. Who needs genes when you can engage Mr Wooten for a week of private lessons?

Edited November 27, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Bankai]

We had a kid come into GuitarGuitar. He must have been 7 years old, he'd only had 6 lessons and he could play a couple of Van Halen songs.

That was impressive.



We were all in agreement that by the time he's 18 he'll be something ridonkulous providing he sticks with it

Edited November 27, 2011 by Bankai

[Mog]

Nice topic Pete.

A talent for a specific act/ability cannot be passed on through genes/inherited. They are learned. How quickly people learn has roots in genetics.
Are talent and genetics therefore[u] directly [/u]linked? IMO no.
Theres also the fact that she is still very young, at an age where learning is far easier. If she picked up either instrument in 30 years time would she progress at the same rate?

[LiamPodmore]

My mum, dad, and grandparents on both sides are not musical at all. I do have musicians in my family, but none of them closely related. I think my desire to pull things apart and see how they work may have come from my great grandad though, he was always doing it up until the day when he phsyically couldn't any more.

Liam

[dmccombe7]

My parents didn't play any instruments and even as a kid don't remember any strong musical influences yet when i was 3 i got my 1st Beetles single (which i still have - 1963) at my request.
Since then I've always loved various types of music and took up playing bass at 15. Still learning but my younger brother of 14 yrs also took up bass at similar age and my older brother of 2 yrs took up playing guitar around same time as myself on bass.
Although i definately took it more serious than them.

No real family background in music but 3 out of 4 kids took up playing an instrument.
Whether there's talent there or not is probably debatable
That said i think you learn far better if you enjoy it and its your hobby to start rather than being forced into lessons.


Dave

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1322253020' post='1448748']
The girl in question regarding the OP has talented parents. She has learned to play two instruments at a good standard in the space of three months, with only minutes of practice per night.

My mum is a talented artist. My brother and I are good at art.

There has to be a genetic link.
[/quote]

Or is the talent latent within all of us and your mum was successful in unlocking that (inspirational?) in you and your brother.

I have two sons, one a talented bass player but has played drums in a pub band, and the other a particularly talented drummer who is currently playing bass in his present recording band, they also play guitar and never went through the buzzy plink-plink stage that most people have and both have a wonderful 'producer's' ear for music, having produced loads, mostly on keyboards. People say, 'Oh we can see where they get it from' as I'm out almost every night playing bass at something or other.

However, I would not say I was talented, I can play a bit, but not like some people seem who simply fall into a much higher standard than me. Tal Wilkenfield wasn't even born when I was farting in a decrepit band van somewhere in the country.

I would say indoctrination from The Who, Jamerson, Jaco, Stanley, Level 42 etc that accompanied my lads' upbringing made it quite different to my own.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1322166367' post='1447552']
Earlier this evening I visited a couple (my ex-wife and her hubby) who are both talented musicians (sax and piano). Their 8-year-old daughter was eager to perform her skills for me on clarinet and piano. She played faultlessly. I asked her parents how long she had been playing. Apparently since September. I thought she might have put in around an hour a night to reach her standard of playing. No...5 to 10 mins a night.
[/quote]

Yeah, but thats 5-10 minutes a night in the presence of two talented musicians, added to a lifetime of living with two musicians. If I lived with my bass teacher I'm sure I would progress at a massive rate.

[lowdown]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1342427179' post='1734507']
Or is the talent latent within all of us and your[b] mum was successful in unlocking that [/b](inspirational?) in you and your brother.
[/quote]

I think this point has crossed my mind about parents and I find it Interesting.
My Mum & Dad were both Musicians, and a couple of my dad's brothers the same.
Two of my cousins went off to the RCM, both me and my younger brother became Bass players.
My Wife is/was a singer and Production Dancer, her mum the same before.
My two sons seem to be going down the music route.


Garry

[discreet]

To the OP's question: No.

Posted this last November (!) but think it's worth repeating.
[url="http://www.squidoo.com/10000-hour-rule"]http://www.squidoo.com/10000-hour-rule[/url]

[Geek99]

not sure - i have "pitch" and my partner has perfect pitch- our daughter does too. Its not [b]all[/b] "nurture"

[Bilbo]

I know that some of the greatest musicians in the world only do 2 hours a day. The guitar magazines say everyone does 10 hours but I can't see how that is sustainable in the real world - I guess its what you define as 'practising'. I think there is a lot to be said for 30 mins a day in preference to 6 hours once a week.

I did the 'lots of hours a day' route for a few years in the 1980s (before life got in the way) and got a lot of technique out of it but, since then, my hands have been faster than me ears and head can cope with so I guess the time was poorly spent. A properly directed kid could probably make major progress if less time was spent knobbing around learning party tricks like Portrait Of Tracy etc.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1342434021' post='1734653']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]i have "pitch" and my partner has perfect pitch- our daughter does too. [b]Its not [/b][/font][/color][b][b]all[/b][/b][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][b] "nurture[/b]" [/font][/color]
[/quote]

Does make you wonder regarding pitch.
I know people who have been playing for year & years [how many hours is that ?]
and still can not busk their way out of a paper bag.

Who know's - but all very fascinating reading DPOV's

[Commando Jack]

Well, I see everyone's covered most of the main points, i.e. the girl will have been surrounded by music and had optimum tuition. For those few months, 10 minutes a day is all you need when you are practising the correct things.

For what its worth, talent for me is inherited, but then I consider talent to be someone's capacity to learn the instrument/music. If you taught an instrument to two people in controlled conditions for a given amount of time and a controlled practise time (so that neither could practise more than the other etc), I think one would progress more quickly than the other at the start because their brains were wired better and their bodies more physically capable.

Of course, I also think that the talent component of a person's ability tends to zero by the time you get to the requisite 10,000 hours.

[RachAllenBand]

I have no clue about whether it's inherited or not; however, musicians were dominant in both sides of my family. Most of my dad's relatives played instruments, my dad played (or tried to) the ukelele. All my brothers played instruments. My mom's side also did (all my cousins and their father). In fact, my mom's brother used to play trombone in a band down on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. Went there to see him. Now my nephew's in a popular band that just finished touring all over the USA.

[paul torch]

It's probably more to do with environment and upbringing.

My grandfather was a landscape oil painter and my mum was a painter and sculptor (both for pleasure rather than income).

I am a graphic artist. I don't think I inherited this via a gene, it's more to do with growing up in an environment where I felt at ease exploring the creative side of things.

[Gust0o]

Nature vs nurture?

I think this will be a little like the "make your own luck" debate in Off Topic - it's possible that you may inherit certain genetic, physical, traits which might make you well suited to certain activities your ancestors enjoyed; but without the effort required to develop and hone the skills derived from those traits, you'll achieve as much as the average Joe may (or may not).

Of course, in the genetric draw, you might not inherit those traits, so...

[discreet]

I suppose it could be summed up thus:

If you're a totally inept cack-handed numpty muppet with halitosis and a limp, then hard luck!

Edit: I apologise in advance to any totally inept cack-handed numpty muppets with halitosis and a limp who may be reading this thread.

Edited July 16, 2012 by discreet