Tuning in 5th's?

[TobyB]

Hi

Looking for some help - don't know if this is a familiar issue or completely bizarre!

I play bass & 6-string guitar a bit ... but more recently have been playing the mandolin and mandola much more. I recently got given a 5 string bass - a Toby Pro ... my 4-string is a Yamaha RBX ... so we're not talking high-end kit ... but my playing isn't either!

Anyhow ... I'd like to have this tuned in 5th's like my mando's ... CGDAE or GDAEB (instead of the conventional EADG 4th's on the 4-string) as I've got very used to?

Tried ... but ended up with snapped B strings or floppy C's. Am I just using the wrong strings as they are intended for 4th's - I have tried mixtures of lighter and heavier sets, but it's been guesswork rather than informed choice!

Is it a matter of getting the right gauges for the strings ... if so ... can anyone suggest what strings I should be using?

Or is this technically/physically/acoustically not possible/realistic on an 87 cms scale-length instrument (or if I do achieve it, will I just break the neck off for instance)?

Would it be more sensible to set up the 5-string in a conventional BEADG 4ths' arrangement and put the 4-string in 5ths as GDAE (I'd prefer this, but I suppose a "cello tuning" in CGDA might be OK if the former isn't realistic and this was) ... again ... if I was to do this, what string gauges should I use?

Or am I trying to ask too much of these instruments?

Cheers

Toby

[leftybassman392]

You're right, it's all in the guages. To do what you require you'd need to buy individual strings (assuming you can even get them in the sizes you'll need) since nobody - but nobody - will sell full sets to do what you need.

For a CGDA tuning (I'm assuming C below the normal low E) a good start might be:

C - around 130 (often used for low B on a 5)
G - around 95 (E would be 105, A would be 85)
D - around 65 (actually correct for a 'normal' set)
A - around 40 (slightly thinner than a standard G @ 45)

These numbers ought to give roughly even tension across the instrument, and should be easily available as singles.

Not definitive by any means, but at least it'll provide a discussion point.

Edited November 29, 2011 by leftybassman392

[bremen]

Great idea...you won't sound like any other bassist!

[Lfalex v1.1]

I ought to do this with one of mine. I've considered it, but never got around to it.some nice chordal options available as well as thelarger range...

[BassBus]

You can buy custom sets of strings on the Status Graphite site.

[url="http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html"]http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html[/url]

Goto online shop -bass strings - single ball - long scale - then select one of the custom set pages.

Might need some nut alteration for thicker strings.

[mart]

+1 to the comments about gauges: it should be achievable if you buy individual strings.

But, there is a practical reason for not tuning in fifths: your hands probably aren't big enough! I'm pretty sure the reason mandos are tuned in fifths is because a hand can still span all the frets needed to play a scale without moving position. With the longer scale length of a bass (or guitar) this becomes impossible, which is why fourths are used. So if you tune your bass in fifths then you'll be moving your hand around much more than you would otherwise have to.

But give it a go - I'd be interested to hear how you get on. I'm a big fan of people discarding conventional wisdom and trying something new.

[leftybassman392]

For some time I had one of my guitars tuned in fourths all the way across (I got it from reading an interview with Big Jim Sullivan, but I think quite a lot of people have done it at one time or another).

All such alterations make you think more about what you're doing, and that's never a bad thing for any musician.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1322585082' post='1453141']

Might need some nut alteration for thicker strings.
[/quote]

+1, especially on the bass side - a 130 gauge most likely won't go into the slot for a 105

[charic]

Drop Newtone strings a line and they'll make you a custom set

My string are from .110's and I'm tuned CGCF so they should be able to accommodate you just fine, I just told them the gauges I want, the tuning and the scale length and they altered the core accordingly

[BassBus]

[quote name='mart' timestamp='1322585225' post='1453148']
But, there is a practical reason for not tuning in fifths: your hands probably aren't big enough! [/quote]

This had crossed my mind. I used to play a full length scale bouzouki but playing tunes was difficult as I have relitively small hands. Bought a shorter scale Fylde Octavius and it is much easier. Still worth a try though.

[TobyB]

Thanks for these thoughts

Good basic ideas on gauges Leftybassman ... will look those out. Thanks Bassbuss for a good source of individual strings. Is there any "proper" or "clever" way of working out what gauge string you need? Did skim the net for such a calculator, but if it exists, was choosing the wrong keywords!

130 suggested for the bottom C ... would there be any advantage going even heavier for a 135 (since it apparently exists)? What about the top E? If a 40 would be about right for the A, would a 30 be right, or even lighter at a 25 or 20? Realise I may well need to mess about with the nut, as well as with the saddle, to get it set up OK ... but being reminded of this is GOOD!

Realise my hands will move longer distances (Mart) ... like shifting from the mandolin to the octave mandola ... but since I'll probably be playing single or paired strings (I imagine) I thought it'd be worth giving a go ...

Cheers

Toby

[TobyB]

Thanks for this Charic - it arrived while I was composing the other reply ... I've used Newtone for mandolin strings, very nice ... I'll drop them a line if they offer such a service? FANTASTIC!

Cheers

Toby

[leftybassman392]

For any given string position, the basic rule of thumb is that thicker strings need to be wound tighter to make the same note. Within reason you can put any gauge on at any position (just don't try to use a 135 for the high A!)

The values I gave you are based on the standard gauges for standard tuning (they do vary slightly, but 45, 65, 85, 105, (130) is very common). I then adjusted slightly for the different notes you want to tune to, bearing in mind the commonly available single string sizes.

The idea is that the tension from string to string is about the same as you move across them, which makes them feel more balanced under your RH fingers when you play. Some do tinker with string gauges a bit, but you really need to know what you're doing before starting down that path.

My thinking was to give you a reference point that you could expand from as you get more into it.

Edited November 29, 2011 by leftybassman392

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='mart' timestamp='1322585225' post='1453148']
+1 to the comments about gauges: it should be achievable if you buy individual strings.

But, there is a practical reason for not tuning in fifths: your hands probably aren't big enough! I'm pretty sure the reason mandos are tuned in fifths is because a hand can still span all the frets needed to play a scale without moving position. With the longer scale length of a bass (or guitar) this becomes impossible, which is why fourths are used. So if you tune your bass in fifths then you'll be moving your hand around much more than you would otherwise have to.

But give it a go - I'd be interested to hear how you get on. I'm a big fan of people discarding conventional wisdom and trying something new.
[/quote]


The Cello is tuned CGDA (in fifths) and also has a 34" scale length, the same as a majority of four string bass guitars.

Like the idea of tuning a bass in fifths though. Very, very, interesting idea that.

Think I'll give Newtone a call as well

[mart]

[quote name='TobyB' timestamp='1322588656' post='1453232']...Good basic ideas on gauges Leftybassman ... will look those out. Thanks Bassbuss for a good source of individual strings. Is there any "proper" or "clever" way of working out what gauge string you need? Did skim the net for such a calculator, but if it exists, was choosing the wrong keywords!....[/quote]
Try this: [url="http://www.stringbusters.com/stringfaqs.htm#Calculator"]http://www.stringbusters.com/stringfaqs.htm#Calculator[/url]
Put in your preferred gauge for a known note (e.g. gauge 100 for an E string) to get a tension figure, then put that tension figure in for each of the other notes you want and get it to calculate the gauge for you. Of course these things can't be exact, but it'll get you pretty close.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1322596736' post='1453378']
The Cello is tuned CGDA (in fifths) and also has a 34" scale length, the same as a majority of four string bass guitars.

Like the idea of tuning a bass in fifths though. Very, very, interesting idea that.

Think I'll give Newtone a call as well
[/quote]
I stand to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure a cello's scale is significantly shorter than 34"- although they aren't as standardised as bass guitars [url="http://thinkns.com/instruments/cello-spec.php"]NS Design's electric cello[/url] is listed as using "standard cello strings and scale length" with a 27" scale.

/end pedantry

There are double bassists who tune in fifths (on a 38-40" scale!) so it's certainly achievable- it's an interesting alternative to adding more strings to get more range,

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1322586375' post='1453181']
For some time I had one of my guitars tuned in fourths all the way across (I got it from reading an interview with Big Jim Sullivan, but I think quite a lot of people have done it at one time or another).

All such alterations make you think more about what you're doing, and that's never a bad thing for any musician.
[/quote]

If I took up guitar, I'd tune it in 4ths, precisely because I could relate fingering patterns to the bass ones. I'd tune it FCGDAE. Based on that line of thought, I can see where the OP's coming from.

As for cello scale length, I always thought it was about the same as a bass guitar. Maybe it's the string length we're confusing it with (given the extra distance from the anchor point to the bridge on a cello)?

[TobyB]

Thanks for that link Mart ... with "standard" bass tuning and string gauges to input, and lefttybassman's guidelines, I might be able to get somewhere ... equally, if Newtone hand the answer to me on a plate I'll be interested.

When I posted this, I thought I'd be told that anyone who was anyone already knew this, and I'd be directed to the standard (much read/repeated) replies ... delighted to stimulate such interest!

Cheers

Toby

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1322605513' post='1453567']
If I took up guitar, I'd tune it in 4ths, precisely because I could relate fingering patterns to the bass ones. I'd tune it FCGDAE. Based on that line of thought, I can see where the OP's coming from.

As for cello scale length, I always thought it was about the same as a bass guitar. Maybe it's the string length we're confusing it with (given the extra distance from the anchor point to the bridge on a cello)?
[/quote]
I don't know, but if you ever get the chance to watch a cello player you can see that part of their normal technique is the first and fourth finger extension- this lets them cover the equivalent of 6 frets without moving their thumb. This is kind of feasible on a bass but it's a big stretch!

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1322605513' post='1453567']
If I took up guitar, I'd tune it in 4ths, precisely because I could relate fingering patterns to the bass ones. I'd tune it FCGDAE. Based on that line of thought, I can see where the OP's coming from.

[/quote]

It was great - the scale patterns just open up underneath your fingers, which makes soloing so much easier once you get used to it.

The downside is that you have to forget most of what you knew about chords (which is a big deal for a lot of guitarists).

[charic]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1322606259' post='1453586']
The downside is that you have to forget most of what you knew about chords (which is a big deal for a lot of guitarists).
[/quote]

That wont take long...

...

..

.

Done

[CalJock]

Thought I'd mention that Brian Gibson the bassist from Lightning Bolt (not everyone's cup of tea, I know) has his 5 string in 5ths and uses banjo strings for the two lightest strings, not sure if he's tuned up or down from standard though. Might be worth having a look around and seeing what sort of guages he uses for the non-banjo strings, I imagine that the numbers will be floating around online somewhere.

[TobyB]

Interested in the opinions about a 5th's set-up .. chime with my playing to a great extent ... I mostly play rhythm/chords on a 6-string, and mostly play single-note tunes on the mando's (some chords, but not so much) ... I love how many notes you get under your fingers without shifting too much. Clearly going to be moving a lot more on the bass (just as I move more on the octave mandola than on the mandolin) ... but the lack of familiar guitar chords isn't an issue to me as I've never used that much on my 4-string ... but the double-stops familiar to any 5th's scale instrument player could work well on a bass (a finger and thumb pinch across 2 strings or a pluck with index and middle?), especially as many are open-stringed or very closely fretted so the reach of your left fingers isn't going to be too much ...

The suggestion for contacting Newtone was excellent ... they got back to me last night and again this morning ... they've suggested ...

"the CGDAE should be possible if you are going up from standard tuning i.e.
.115 B string tuned up to C
miss out an E string
.080 A string tuned up to G
.060 D string
.040 G string up to A and something like an
.018 for the E"

No wonder I was struggling with the E ... not seen a bass string that light! They are sending me a couple of sets, with options of an .018 and a .020 for the E as he admitted it's a bit of guesswork ...

GREAT service advice ... bought some more mandolin strings from him too!

When I've got the thing set up I'll report back ...

Cheers

Toby

[Maverick]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1322606259' post='1453586']
It was great - the scale patterns just open up underneath your fingers, which makes soloing so much easier once you get used to it.

The downside is that you have to forget most of what you knew about chords (which is a big deal for a lot of guitarists).
[/quote]

I think may favourite tuning on guitar is Open C (or you could use any open tuning really), really opens up some interesting chord voicings that would be difficult or impossible to use in standard. I know some people think that drop tunings are cheating, so I'd love to hear what they have to say about opten tunings, but they're really not all about the one finger power chords that some people make out (although that's part of the fun ).

[BottomEndian]

I've toyed with fifths many times, and I currently have my OLP 5-string tuned Bb-F-C-G-D (low to high). Good fun for chords, comping accompaniments and disjointed bass parts.

I made up the set from D'Addario singles, with gauges 130-95-65-45-28. It's nice and even across the strings. Works for me, anyway.