for anyone who uses any of these silly things you must read this!

[OliverBlackman]

Joe Hubbards views of finger exercises.

"Spider exercises, chops building exercises, left & right hand gymnastics, tablature, finger combination drills, technique builders, rubber band assisted finger exercises and grip strengthening exercises all belong in one place- the TRASH! That’s right- anything you practice that does not include musical content and/or context which isn’t engaging the mind as you practice is useless and will not improve your bass guitar playing skills one iota. Oh, I can already hear some of you saying, “What about all of those warm up exercises that I practice?” Let’s first discuss the problem before I prescribe the solution."

check the rest out on his website, well worth it

[Coilte]

I dont entirely agree with all he says. Firstly, I [b]do[/b] agree with him on tabs and grip strengthening exercises. I am a great believer in warming up the hands and fingers in readiness for the physical activity that will be expected of them. The bass is a very physical instrument, and just as a sports person warms up before physical activity, I believe a bassist can avoid cramps and possible injury by warming up. It only takes about five minutes and is time well spent IMO. While gentle stretches obviously dont involve playing music, there are musical warm up exercises that can be done on the bass. Diving headlong into fast complex playing from the very start, without first warming up, is asking for trouble IMO.

I also think technique is important. How can a person play to the highest standard if they dont practice technique, especially when starting from scratch ? It is not something we are born with, so we have to develop it. Good technique can also prevent possible physical problems later on.


I also beg to differ with him on the rubber band assisted exercises. I am in good company here, as Stu Hamm endorses them. I found this exercise ( only takes five minutes a day, and can be done away from the bass...at work, watching TV, out for a walk, etc, so no valuable music playing time is lost ) very helpful.

I thoroughly agree that [b]MUSIC [/b]is why a person picks up the bass, but we have to learn to crawl before we can walk. To build up a high standard of playing, you have to make sure that the foundations are solid first.

[OliverBlackman]

i think when he refers to technique he means focus on your technique while doing somethig musical ie learning scales or patterns rather than just focussing on technique. Confidence on the fretboard is more important than technique IMO, especially when so many big name players use non traditional approaches to technique.

[jakenewmanbass]

I think at the level Joe is pitching this stuff the 'having a musical content' to what you practise is a good idea, I do however think at the beginner stage, that some exercises that allow you to concentrate on the physical nature of what you're doing are highly useful.
I have looked at Joe's site and he seems to be a really comprehensive teacher and knowledgeable chap.

[Wylie]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322680190' post='1454495']

I also think technique is important. How can a person play to the highest standard if they dont practice technique, especially when starting from scratch ? It is not something we are born with, so we have to develop it. Good technique can also prevent possible physical problems later on.

I thoroughly agree that [b]MUSIC [/b]is why a person picks up the bass, but we have to learn to crawl before we can walk. To build up a high standard of playing, you have to make sure that the foundations are solid first.
[/quote]

I agree here. I am currently running through the ii-V-I cycle, and while I would like this to be musical--and try to make it so--it isn't always. But the main thing is that I need to run the cycle in all keys and simply memorize a good many of the possibilities: where's the third, the fifth, the seventh? How can I change it up? Where can I go from here? And so on.

[risingson]

I think Coilte hit the nail on the head.

Although I'm not familiar with the elastic band warmup exercise, there are practical ways in which you can warm up the muscles of your hands without actually playing your instrument. Those grip master things look silly but they certainly do the job. Also our guitarist who suffers from psoriatic arthritis (a young lad) likes to use one of those 'powerball' things before a performance. I thought of it as a bit of a placebo at first but after a few goes I would say it does the job.

[Blademan_98]

I do non musical practices on the bass.

Just noodling and listening to the notes.

Sliding on the fretless 'just because I like the sound' sort of things.

I enjoy it but it's not really musical.

I have learned a lot about the fretboard etc.

[Coilte]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1322687511' post='1454634']
Those grip master things look silly but they certainly do the job.
[/quote]

Sorry to say, but they dont do the job in the least. These grip master gadgets, while they may have their uses elsewhere, for playing bass, they are a waste of time and money IMO. Why ?

Because they develop the hand to do the [b]opposite[/b] of what is required to fret a string. Minimal strength is required to fret a string. This strength is in all healthy people from an early age. Dexterity and stamina is what is needed. To do this, the tendons that [b]open [/b]the hand, i.e. lift them from one note to the next, without them getting in one an other's way, is what needs to be worked on. By gripping, you are developing muscles or tendons that are not required.

[RichF]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322690477' post='1454670']
Sorry to say, but they dont do the job in the least. These grip master gadgets, while they may have their uses elsewhere, for playing bass, they are a waste of time and money IMO. Why ?

Because they develop the hand to do the [b]opposite[/b] of what is required to fret a string. Minimal strength is required to fret a string. This strength is in all healthy people from an early age. Dexterity and stamina is what is needed. To do this, the tendons that [b]open [/b]the hand, i.e. lift them from one note to the next, without them getting in one an other's way, is what needs to be worked on. By gripping, you are developing muscles or tendons that are not required.
[/quote]

i have always wondered about this - in the same way too much muscle definition can hinder not aid in certain sports where flexibility and agility are important, I have always been taught lightness of touch etc., when playing piano, fretting a bass, and thought that working too much with some of these exercises could be counter-productive. That's not to say there aren't better non-musical exercises, so not really agreeing with Hubbard, just wondering whether people need to be a bit clearer what they are trying to do.

Edited November 30, 2011 by RichF

[OliverBlackman]

if you do the required stretches before you play i dont see how you can have hand problems. Except for the last few weeks (bloody coursework) i play bass 5 hours and havnt ever had a problem.

edit: unless your technique is bad

Edited November 30, 2011 by blackmn90

[Coilte]

[quote name='RichF' timestamp='1322691075' post='1454682']
i have always wondered about this - in the same way too much muscle definition can hinder not aid in certain sports where flexibility and agility are important
[/quote]

Yeah, it is like the weight lifter and the 100 meter sprinter. They each need a different training regime for what they require their bodies to do. It's not a "one size fits all" situation.

[Coilte]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1322691608' post='1454691']
if you do the required stretches before you play i dont see how you can have hand problems.

edit: unless your technique is bad
[/quote]


Agree 100 %. If you do, it wont be from playing the bass.

[skej21]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1322691608' post='1454691']
edit: unless your technique is bad
[/quote]

In which case, you would HAVE to practice technical exercises in order to correct/improve your technique to prevent such problems. This would inevitably include SOME non-musical exercises. That's just a fact.

[4 Strings]

For all those who went to see VW in Romford a while back will remember this is exactly what he said. While he encouraged dong scales he also encouraged making a riff out them by playing with timing and making sure timing was spot on.

For me timing is one of the most important things that differentiates between a 'professional' sound and an 'amateur' sound. I'm pretty sure Jamerson's technique wasn't that great (he only used one finger after all!) but I so wish I could even emulate his timing let alone have it for myself. Wooten encouraged practice of exercises but with timing, and musicality. This will defo make you a better bass player.

Edited November 30, 2011 by 4 Strings

[risingson]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322690477' post='1454670']
Sorry to say, but they dont do the job in the least. These grip master gadgets, while they may have their uses elsewhere, for playing bass, they are a waste of time and money IMO. Why ?

Because they develop the hand to do the [b]opposite[/b] of what is required to fret a string. Minimal strength is required to fret a string. This strength is in all healthy people from an early age. Dexterity and stamina is what is needed. To do this, the tendons that [b]open [/b]the hand, i.e. lift them from one note to the next, without them getting in one an other's way, is what needs to be worked on. By gripping, you are developing muscles or tendons that are not required.
[/quote]

I totally disagree. I'm a regular gigging and recording musician, and am well aware of what I need to use to warm up before I play. Often it's a case in the winter months of donning a pair of gloves for the long journey in the cold van so when we arrive and have loaded in to our respective venue, I've got warm hands. You said it yourself: the muscle groups in your hands and wrists need warming up, and whilst there is a hell of a lot to be said for taking 10 minutes out before you start playing by blasting through your scales and arpeggios, sometimes if this hasn't been possible for whatever reason I've found those grippy things to be useful in warming up before I play. It has nothing to do with how hard or soft you play, I have my bass set up so that I can put in the most minimal amount of effort to get out the biggest sound, that's how I like it. But those grip masters categorically do warm up your major muscle groups in your hands.

I'm not saying use these contraptions in isolation. It's best to have a good spread of exercises as go to options, but they certainly help and if the average player wishes to use them in this way then I don't see the problem, providing you're using them in the right way.



I would add that is totally mad to dismiss exercises that seem in any way 'non-musical' on the bass. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think beginners should be taught the importance of exercising in musical ways so as to develop a good sense of how their instrument should be played as well as learning their notes on their fingerboard, but I know for certain that I often find myself playing very 'un-musical' things as a means of warming up. in conjunction with very musical warm-ups.

Edited December 1, 2011 by risingson

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1322691860' post='1454698']
In which case, you would HAVE to practice technical exercises in order to correct/improve your technique to prevent such problems. This would inevitably include SOME non-musical exercises. That's just a fact.
[/quote]

like what exercises? if i'm altering parts of my technique or trying something new out i'll do it whilst playing something, usually scales (which can be made musical using rhythms, dynamics, articulation ect).

While on the topic of practice iv also noticed if i dont play stuff i already know to "warm up" and just go straight in with what i need to learn i get much more done. Which gives me more time to be on here

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1322693874' post='1454737']
While he encouraged dong scales ...[/quote]

I'd pay good money to see that.

[Coilte]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1322700364' post='1454801'] I totally disagree. I'm a regular gigging and recording musician, and am well aware of what I need to use to warm up before I play. Often it's a case in the winter months of donning a pair of gloves for the long journey in the cold van so when we arrive and have loaded in to our respective venue, I've got warm hands. You said it yourself: the muscle groups in your hands and wrists need warming up, and whilst there is a hell of a lot to be said for taking 10 minutes out before you start playing by blasting through your scales and arpeggios, sometimes if this hasn't been possible for whatever reason I've found those grippy things to be useful in warming up before I play. It has nothing to do with how hard or soft you play, I have my bass set up so that I can put in the most minimal amount of effort to get out the biggest sound, that's how I like it. But those grip masters categorically do warm up your major muscle groups in your hands. I'm not saying use these contraptions in isolation. It's best to have a good spread of exercises as go to options, but they certainly help and if the average player wishes to use them in this way then I don't see the problem, providing you're using them in the right way. I would add that is totally mad to dismiss exercises that seem in any way 'non-musical' on the bass. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think beginners should be taught the importance of exercising in musical ways so as to develop a good sense of how their instrument should be played as well as learning their notes on their fingerboard, but I know for certain that I often find myself playing very 'un-musical' things as a means of warming up. in conjunction with very musical warm-ups.


[/quote] I respect, but disagree with your opinion on grip devices. While I'm sure they do warm up the hands, they do so by exercising the muscles and tendons that will not be required in fretting or plucking. Would you not agree that it would be better to warm up by exercising the parts of the hand that will be used ? These devices build [b]strength, [/b]when stamina and agility is what is needed. It is similar to an 100 meter sprinter warming up by lifting heavy weights like a weight lifter does. Sure, he/she will warm up this way, but wont be using what's required when sprinting.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Coilte

[risingson]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322733246' post='1454931']
I respect, but disagree with your opinion on grip devices. While I'm sure they do warm up the hands, they do so by exercising the muscles and tendons that will not be required in fretting or plucking. Would you not agree that it would be better to warm up by exercising the parts of the hand that will be used ? These devices build [b]strength, [/b]when stamina and agility is what is needed. It is similar to an 100 meter sprinter warming up by lifting heavy weights like a weight lifter does. Sure, he/she will warm up this way, but wont be using what's required when sprinting.
[/quote]

The heavy weightlifting thing doesn't quite add up because most of these grip masters are adjustable in this respect. And I would agree that using a grip machine this way would soon become a totally redundant exercise and a waste of time. But you don't have to be exerting your full energy into using them, they are adjustable.

I don't think there are any substitutes for having both good technique and a good warmup regime, but I see no reason to use other means of warming up your hands rather than just playing scales etc. if the results translate.

[steve-bbb]

there is also the muscle memory aspect to consider with the grip thingies

if you use them repeatedly then your fingers and muscles will learn well how to repeat the motion of compressing a little button mouted on top of a spring

when you start pressing a string against a fret there is a lot more subtlety and finer nuances involved than just repeatedly 'pressing a stiff button'

do you need 'more strength' in your fretting hand?

if you want a good strong mechanical grip in your hands you could go join a tug-of-war team and have some fun at the same time unless you enjoy the tedium of repeatedly pressing an inert stiff button ... or as mrs doyle might say ...[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI0MRyUFIXU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI0MRyUFIXU[/url]

[charic]

IMO if you train your hand to be able to fret hard with minimal effort then you can fret softly with even less. Change the routine and you can make it for endurance set it to a light to but say you have to grip it to a metronome of ever increasing speed. Do one finger at a time and increase speed in between and you increase the agility.

Any tool you use for training is only as good as the exercises you can think up.

All imo etc etc..

[derrenleepoole]

Play, play some more and play again! By far the best way to exercise the hand and build up stamina and dexterity is to simply play. It's all about muscle memory and repetition is the key. I personally don't see what use grips and other hand devices are! As others have said, a well setup instrument requires very little strength to play. In fact, the best way to play is to be totally relaxed and loose, this way it's easier to move over the fingerboard and be a more fluid and consistent as a player. Well, that's what I think anyway, for what it's worth.

[BottomE]

Another vote for just playing. I can't think of any reason not to do all my warm ups on a bass. On cold gigs i either go into the loos and find a hand dryer or into the car with the heater blowing.

I did find a couple of warm cushions on the front of our singer but she tookoffence when i tried to use them.

[Coilte]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1322735515' post='1454966']
The heavy weightlifting thing doesn't quite add up because most of these grip masters are adjustable in this respect. And I would agree that using a grip machine this way would soon become a totally redundant exercise and a waste of time. But you don't have to be exerting your full energy into using them, they are adjustable.

I don't think there are any substitutes for having both good technique and a good warmup regime, but I see no reason to use other means of warming up your hands rather than just playing scales etc. if the results translate.
[/quote]


OK. Leaving aside the device itself for a moment, let us talk about "grip" and how it relates ( or more to the point..does [b]not[/b] ) to bass playing. You, as a seasoned experienced bassist will know that a key aspect to good technique is keeping both hands relaxed. Beginners often make the mistake of holding the neck of the bass in a death grip. This not only hampers their playing, but can possibly lead to physical problems later on. The advice always given by teachers is to always have both hands as relaxed as possible. With all this in mind, maybe you could explain the benefits from a bass playing aspect, of building up gripping strength, regardless of whether the gripping device is adjustable or not.

[Coilte]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1322736504' post='1454982']


do you need 'more strength' in your fretting hand?

[/quote]

This is the key question in the whole "gripping devices" debate. IMO you dont.

Gary Willis touches on this, in the first minute of this clip.


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJlE5qNc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJlE5qNc[/url]