for anyone who uses any of these silly things you must read this!

[risingson]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322739071' post='1455055']
OK. Leaving aside the device itself for a moment, let us talk about "grip" and how it relates ( or more to the point..does [b]not[/b] ) to bass playing. You, as a seasoned experienced bassist will know that a key aspect to good technique is keeping both hands relaxed. Beginners often make the mistake of holding the neck of the bass in a death grip. This not only hampers their playing, but can possibly lead to physical problems later on. The advice always given by teachers is to always have both hands as relaxed as possible. With all this in mind, maybe you could explain the benefits from a bass playing aspect, of building up gripping strength, regardless of whether the gripping device is adjustable or not.
[/quote]

With respect, I do believe you're missing the point. These things don't have to dictate grip at all. If these grippy contraptions are getting blood pumping to the muscles in the hands, which they inevitably will be, then it is one step closer to having hands that will perform to a higher level after periods of little to no bass playing activity. Used in conjunction with more regular styles of warming up, I don't see the harm in using them. I wouldn't recommend them to beginner bass players. The adjustability of them does make a difference and shouldn't be discounted... I would agree that using them on maximum resistance would be a fruitless endeavour, comparable to your suggestion before of a runner training with high weights and low rep.

[xilddx]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1322700364' post='1454801']
I totally disagree. I'm a regular gigging and recording musician, and am well aware of what I need to use to warm up before I play. Often it's a case in the winter months of donning a pair of gloves for the long journey in the cold van so when we arrive and have loaded in to our respective venue, I've got warm hands. You said it yourself: the muscle groups in your hands and wrists need warming up, and whilst there is a hell of a lot to be said for taking 10 minutes out before you start playing by blasting through your scales and arpeggios, sometimes if this hasn't been possible for whatever reason I've found those grippy things to be useful in warming up before I play. It has nothing to do with how hard or soft you play, I have my bass set up so that I can put in the most minimal amount of effort to get out the biggest sound, that's how I like it. But those grip masters categorically do warm up your major muscle groups in your hands.

I'm not saying use these contraptions in isolation. It's best to have a good spread of exercises as go to options, but they certainly help and if the average player wishes to use them in this way then I don't see the problem, providing you're using them in the right way.



I would add that is totally mad to dismiss exercises that seem in any way 'non-musical' on the bass. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think beginners should be taught the importance of exercising in musical ways so as to develop a good sense of how their instrument should be played as well as learning their notes on their fingerboard, but I know for certain that I often find myself playing very 'un-musical' things as a means of warming up. in conjunction with very musical warm-ups.
[/quote]

Cold muscles need stretching, then gentle warm up, not strenuous exercise.

[risingson]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1322744742' post='1455189']
Cold muscles need stretching, then gentle warm up, [b]not strenuous exercise[/b].
[/quote]

Read my posts more carefully and you'll note that I didn't imply this at any stage.

Edited December 1, 2011 by risingson

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

A Gripmaster may or may not help with left hand technique - I don't know, but that's not what I used mine for. It did help me with my right hand technique. I used to run out of steam halfway through a fast song we used to play at the end of the set and would get severe cramp in the hand. After using a gripmaster these problems went away as my fingers felt a lot stronger and I could play a lot faster and not run out of steam.

[chris_b]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I don't know Joe but I used to stand around in the Bass Centre, when it was upstairs and our visits coincided, pretending to look at the basses but really listening to him running through chops, exercises and just jamming. I used to go home with my confidence in my technique and ability in tatters. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]After that, no doubt about it, if he says something will help and improve my playing I'd believe him. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[font=Arial][size=2] [/size][/font]

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' timestamp='1322745163' post='1455207']
A Gripmaster may or may not help with left hand technique - I don't know, but that's not what I used mine for. It did help me with my right hand technique. I used to run out of steam halfway through a fast song we used to play at the end of the set and would get severe cramp in the hand. After using a gripmaster these problems went away as my fingers felt a lot stronger and I could play a lot faster and not run out of steam.
[/quote]

but wouldnt you just repeatedly practice the song to develop the strength to complete it without fatigue? that way you are reinforcing the muscle memory and pattern of the fingering too? i dont disagree that squeezing a gripmaster will improve strength - its just that i would prefer to improve that strength by repeating the riffs and patterns over and over until they roll off your fingertips on auto-pilot

[Coilte]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1322740922' post='1455098']
With respect, I do believe you're missing the point. These things don't have to dictate grip at all. If these grippy contraptions are getting blood pumping to the muscles in the hands, which they inevitably will be, then it is one step closer to having hands that will perform to a higher level after periods of little to no bass playing activity. Used in conjunction with more regular styles of warming up, I don't see the harm in using them. I wouldn't recommend them to beginner bass players. The adjustability of them does make a difference and shouldn't be discounted... I would agree that using them on maximum resistance would be a fruitless endeavour, comparable to your suggestion before of a runner training with high weights and low rep.
[/quote]


These grip devices, by their very name involve gripping. They are designed to develop gripping strength primarily. There is no getting away from that fact. Otherwise they might be called warm up gadgets. This repeated gripping and releasing is what gets the blood pumping, like you say. In the process you are building up strength that is not required. This unwanted strength could make the hand muscle bound, if the gadget was over used, and could in fact inhibit playing, much like our friend the weight lifter trying to do gymnastics or run a hundred meters. IMO, gentle stretching of the fingers and wrists, followed by slow deliberate exercises ( musical or otherwise) on the bass itself, is all that is needed to warm up. Five to ten minutes is all it takes.


To the other posters who constantly keep mentioning hand strength with regards to bass playing, I suggest you try this little experiment. Without your thumb on the back of the neck, gently apply some pressure on the string until the note sounds clearly. You will see just how little is the amount of strength required. Stamina and dexterity on the other hand ( pun intended ) are a different thing altogether. It is these latter two, that dictate how long you can play for, how well you get around the neck, and how fast... [b]not [/b]strength.

[risingson]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322749474' post='1455329']
These grip devices, by their very name involve gripping. They are designed to develop gripping strength primarily. There is no getting away from that fact. Otherwise they might be called warm up gadgets. This repeated gripping and releasing is what gets the blood pumping, like you say. In the process you are building up strength that is not required. This unwanted strength could make the hand muscle bound, if the gadget was over used, and could in fact inhibit playing, much like our friend the weight lifter trying to do gymnastics or run a hundred meters. IMO, gentle stretching of the fingers and wrists, followed by slow deliberate exercises ( musical or otherwise) on the bass itself, is all that is needed to warm up. Five to ten minutes is all it takes.
[/quote]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said here. But these gadgets aren't isolation exercises, i.e. they're not singularly working on one thing (the big hang up here being grip). They are by their very nature they are making you perform compound exercise, or in other words you're working out more than just one thing at a time. Low resistance work outs and high repetition on an irregular basis will not see improved muscle mass, that's not how muscle building works, so it is a theory that can be discounted if you're using such a device in the correct manner. I'm yet to come across anyone who has developed high muscle mass from singularly using a grip master either.

I do strongly believe that good technique should be achievable without the use of something like a grip-master, or indeed any other gadget that is marketed as such. But I would say that the times in which I have used them, they have gone at least some way in getting my hands 'motivated' to work for lack of a better term But I suspect we shan't agree. I respect your opinion though, and that of Gary Willis's, even if his video was starting to put me asleep!

[Coilte]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1322750174' post='1455344']
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said here. But these gadgets aren't isolation exercises, i.e. they're not singularly working on one thing (the big hang up here being grip). They are by their very nature they are making you perform compound exercise, or in other words you're working out more than just one thing at a time. Low resistance work outs and high repetition on an irregular basis will not see improved muscle mass, that's not how muscle building works, so it is a theory that can be discounted if you're using such a device in the correct manner. I'm yet to come across anyone who has developed high muscle mass from singularly using a grip master either.

I do strongly believe that good technique should be achievable without the use of something like a grip-master, or indeed any other gadget that is marketed as such. But I would say that the times in which I have used them, they have gone at least some way in getting my hands 'motivated' to work for lack of a better term But I suspect we shan't agree. I respect your opinion though, and that of Gary Willis's, even if his video was starting to put me asleep!
[/quote]

Good to know we have found some common ground. We will indeed have to agree to disagree about the gripping devices.

BTW, you were only supposed to look at the first minute of the Gary Willis clip !!

[risingson]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322750831' post='1455365']
Good to know we have found some common ground. We will indeed have to agree to disagree about the gripping devices.

BTW, you were only supposed to look at the first minute of the Gary Willis clip !!
[/quote]

I think Gary Willis is a marvelous bass teacher with a lot of informative stuff to say, but I wish he'd inject his teaching with a bit more in the way of life!

[Coilte]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1322750976' post='1455370']
I think Gary Willis is a marvelous bass teacher with a lot of informative stuff to say, but I wish he'd inject his teaching with a bit more in the way of life!
[/quote]

I agree about his skills of conveying knowledge. What he does convey makes a lot of practical sense though, IMO.

[charic]

Another thought, you might not need a great deal of strength in your fretting hand but commonly professional bassists and guitarists have fairly defined forearms. So surely ANY form of exercise for the forearms can't be a bad thing...


At least that's what I tell the mrs

[xilddx]

I always like what Robert Fripp said about musicians talking about having a relationship with their instrument, when in reality, many don't even have a relationship with their own hands.

I think exercises which increase finger independence, speed and strength are very useful, but why not challenge the musical mind at the same time. I think I agree with Joe Hubbard on this.

[lowdown]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' timestamp='1322738303' post='1455031']
[b]Play, play[/b] some more and[b] play [/b]again! By far the best way to exercise the hand and build up stamina and dexterity is to simply [b]play[/b]. It's all about muscle memory and repetition is the key.
[/quote]

This above for me.
Throw in something musical why you are doing it, thus helping with ear training, and it becomes enjoyable even more.

I agree with JH.


Garry

[Telebass]

What works is what works, even if that's completely different for every bassist. there is no right or wrong way to be prescribed.
Basic knowledge says to warm your hands up a bit in some way, especially in cold weather.
How you do it? However you like.

[uncle psychosis]

If a [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CPHnZV0K-k"][u]ten year old girl[/u][/url] can play the bass then a fully grown man shouldn't need to do any kind of "strengthening". If you do, then you're probably using the wrong technique in the first place.

[simwells]

Whilst I personally am not one for using items such as grippers in a bass playing perspective I do see the benefits of getting the hands warmed up however possible though I don't see why anything than playing would be needed for this. I would also add from the other side that I'm quite keen on training grip (completely seperate from bass playing) and you're unlikely to find anyone interested in it that really believes items like gripmasters are any use for anything but a warm up as put simply they don't go strong enough to be in anyway strenous on a persons hand and so won't build any noticable strength may only very marginally increase stamina in these muscles though I would be surprised if anyone would notice it especially when if looking at it from a bass perspective you're also practising which is strengthening the more relevant muscles at the same time.

[4 Strings]

not sure about the 10 year girl thing but how about this one (whiz it on a bit if you want, it gets better):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pZH2-rTp8Ug

Not sure how much body building has been part of his life but I can't play like him.