Double Bass Newbie

[JD1]

30 years on electric bass. Just bought a double bass (it's looming over my shoulder as I type). Blimey, it's a bit physical isn't it?

[jakenewmanbass]

It is. Double and bass guitar are different instruments, with completely different physical demands and technique so go easy on your new muscle use to begin with.
Most of all though enjoy it, when it starts to sing for you its a beautiful thing.
Jake

[bassace]

[quote name='JD1' post='164733' date='Mar 27 2008, 07:54 PM']30 years on electric bass. Just bought a double bass (it's looming over my shoulder as I type). Blimey, it's a bit physical isn't it?[/quote]

Yes, it's certainly physical but you will find that your muscles will soon realign, especially when you start to do gigs. It happened the other way round for me many years ago. I started on upright but I took over a Fender Jazz in a group that I managed. After the first gig someone had to carry out the amp for me, my arms wouldn't work.

Enjoy your upright and stick at it!

[paul, the]

How do the experienced feel about gigging quite soon after getting an upright?

I'd advise a beginner electric bassist to get jamming at least. Could you ask the same for new upright player?


...and I have a terrible ear.

[jakenewmanbass]

I think in most cases it would be fine, but there are considerations regarding injury, I'm always cautious about giving my students too much to do because in my nearly 20 yrs of gigging on upright I have come across musicians who have had to take long periods off playing through muscle strain or tendonitis, usually through overplaying or some other injury made worse by playing . Often an injury that seems quite innocuous can be long lasting and sometimes even depressing.

At the same time I don't wish to make people worry as it should be an enjoyable experience. I think its probably the case that most people will have a good sense of what they can do, but they should keep in mind that the demands of a gig are always more than you can imagine in your practice scenario and should be considered as such. In my first years playing upright gigs did tire me, and I got blisters. That has all gone now though and I love gigging or recording on upright.

I suppose the main thrust of my message is to try to avoid being one of the minority of unfortunates that ends up having difficulty playing by overdoing it.

Hope thats cogent, have had a little drinky :blush:

Jake

Edit:
Its been said before but I'll say it again. Some lessons on basic left hand technique go a long way to making you way better, way quicker, and they could also prevent problems.

Edited March 28, 2008 by jakesbass

[JD1]

Thanks for the advice folks.

I guess my stamina will develop alongside my technique and intonation - all of which will need a shed load of work before I would feel confident enough to gig with it. Going to stick at it though.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='JD1' post='165016' date='Mar 28 2008, 05:44 AM']Thanks for the advice folks.

I guess my stamina will develop alongside my technique and intonation - all of which will need a shed load of work before I would feel confident enough to gig with it. Going to stick at it though.[/quote]

Your stamina will definitely improve as you say.
One quick tip on intonation, you stand a much better chance at staying in tune if you keep contact with the string when you move your hand. To get a feel for this, exaggerate the action and produce a big slide between the notes. As you get familiar with the positions of the notes eliminate the sliding sound between them, but maintain the contact with the strings.
[u]NB[/u] This exercise should be done in isolation, when thinking about intonation, don't apply it to all your practice as you could end up sliding everywhere and that wouldn't do.

Edited March 28, 2008 by jakesbass

[TPJ]

Welcome to the world of upright. It's a beautiful thing.

There are some very useful threads over on TB in the Double bass section. One I found very interesting is about playing up and down the strings instead of across them. I've been applying this and it helps with both strength and intonation.

Have fun

[JD1]

Thanks guys

[Linus27]

Hi JD1,

I am also very new to double bass so I will share my experience from being a self taught electric player for 20 years to then moving over to upright. For the record, I am learning on a Stagg Electric Upright and having lessons from jakesbass. I have had two lessons so far and only been playing for maybe a few months.

My biggest problem I have had has been the strength in my left hand (fretting hand) or lack of especially fretting the E string. String tension, technique and the different approach were all factors. Looking back, I could maybe only play along to 1 song but now, with practise and being shown how to correctly use the fretting hand, I feel I am getting there. I still have a long way to go and my hand still gets tired but when it does, thats when I know to stop and rest. jakesbass has been teaching me scales (no former musical training) and this really helps with building strength, especially as he says its taking me away from my comfort zone which it is. On one hand it's an easy practise to do and rewarding when you do it well but on the other hand it means you can focus on intonation, fretting correctly and getting used to techniques whilst building up hand strength. For me, I found this has really helped, not only from a musical learning tool but also for developing my left hand technique. It also gets you thinking what notes to play where. What I mean by this is I was never a fan of playing open D and G strings on an electric bass and would certainly use the A string a lot more than moving up to the D and E. With double bass I have totally changed my approach to this. I have had to really.

As for my right hand, I am a little confused by this. Having always played with a plectrum and never with fingers, one of my biggest worries was not having the strength in my fingers. I tried before playing with fingers on an electric but after a few fast songs, my whole right hand would go numb and would go dead. Maybe because I played guitar punk pop When I first went to see jakesbass, it was obvious that not only was I plucking (sure thats the wrong terminology) the upright incorrectly but the difference in what could be achived in terms on power and what I was achieving was like night and day. However, once shown I seemed to make this change with little problem and it seems very natural. Whats odd is I can now play along to my old bands album with fingers on an electric bass with no problem.

I can't really comment of how to hold the double bass as mine is an electric upright and I just did what felt natural which was support it against my left knee whilst my leg is slightly bent. The one thing I had to adjust was the height as I had it to low.

I would really recommend lessons as the double bass is such a different instrument to the electric bass. I wanted lessons as I wanted to make sure I was starting out the correct way and not pick up any bad habits early on. I have enough of those already from playing electric bass Lessons have really helped me. One other thing, when you go back to an electric bass after playing double, your be amazed at how much easier it is to use your left hand.

Hope thats helped you a little from another total novice

[JD1]

Cheers mate - thanks for the help. Yeah - open strings are getting a bit more of a look in on this than they would on electric! Half an hour on this and then when I pick up the electric I feel like I'm going to crush the neck.

I've been practicing some of the "big-band" numbers I sometimes do in a function band - It Had To Be You, Fly Me To The Moon, Lets Face The Music and Dance etc. 15 minutes of Me and Mrs Jones and my left hand was really giving me gip. I don't have the biggest hands and I've struggled in the past with extended scale basses. However, like I said I'm going to stick at it as it sounds so good.

I'm used to playing fretless and fingerstyle, so those aspects aren't so much of a worry, but because of the scale length I'm struggling to get my bearings intonation wise - and the "challenging" action and tension just add to the fun (as does the ensuing wrestling match when I want to go up to the dusty end of the neck!)

I toyed with getting an electric upright as a transition, but I thought no I would jump straight in. A good friend (who I'm hoping for a few lessons from) let me have the bass at a good price and that helped the decision process as well.

Let me know how you get on and I'll keep you posted with my progress, although I fear gigs with it are a long way off for me!

Regards

John

Edited March 30, 2008 by JD1

[Linus27]

Thanks JD1, will keep you updated and look forward to hearing your progress.

[pop monkey]

Hi all. I so want too play the double bass BUT have a small hand span. I've been looking at EUBs as a start point with a veiw to getting a 3/4 size DB and a bigger car ..........any advice would be welcome

pop monkey

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='pop monkey' post='191076' date='May 3 2008, 09:25 AM']Hi all. I so want too play the double bass BUT have a small hand span. I've been looking at EUBs as a start point with a veiw to getting a 3/4 size DB and a bigger car ..........any advice would be welcome

pop monkey[/quote]
Hi, having a small hand span should not serve as any kind of bar to playing DB even within the standard sizes of basses 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 4/4 there are wide variations in stop size (the distance between notes) Its just a question of finding the right sized instrument for you.
Ironically you will encounter more uniformity of size in the string and stop length on EUB as they are a relatively modern invention and are more likely to conform to similar accepted scales (not musical scales you realise )
BTW it's possible to get a DB in a mini.
Jake

[pop monkey]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='191097' date='May 3 2008, 10:03 AM']it's possible to get a DB in a mini.[/quote]

Hi jakesbass thanks for your help .................I had a little go on an Aria EUB, the 4 I think. It had a nice sound but the neck was like a tree truck
I think it would be a good idea for me too have a few lessons to see if i can get a feel for the DB.


DB in a mini ,,,,,,,,,,,,,that's dedication

cheers

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='pop monkey' post='192046' date='May 5 2008, 09:03 AM']I think it would be a good idea for me too have a few lessons to see if i can get a feel for the DB.

cheers[/quote]
Where are you based?

Edited May 5, 2008 by jakesbass

[pop monkey]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='192304' date='May 5 2008, 04:38 PM']Where are you based?[/quote]

Wolverhampton .........Dooh!

PM

[jakenewmanbass]

Roger Innis is in Brum I think, a really lovely player, don't know if he teaches, Mikey D on here is also in the area, I don't know if he gives lessons on double but he's bound to know someone that does.
Ask around you'll find someone.
Good luck
Jake

[Lenny B]

The 2 best tips I was given for Double Bass;

1) when playing in first position picture a matchbox in between the nut and where the first fret would be - that will get you pretty much where you want to be

2) Find out what the note is by the heel - is it D or Eb? That will be a useful reference when moving up the neck.

Have fun

[TPJ]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='191097' date='May 3 2008, 10:03 AM']BTW it's possible to get a DB in a mini.
Jake[/quote]
For what it's worth, you can get a 3/4 UDB in a Yaris.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='TPJ' post='193650' date='May 7 2008, 09:43 AM']For what it's worth, you can get a 3/4 UDB in a Yaris. [/quote]
I once got a DB in the footwell of my berlingo, I kid you not...


It was in tiny smashed up pieces, it had seen the wrong side of a flight to Italy. Came out with neck off sound post dropped and a nice compression on the front table. So I had fun smashing it to bits.

I'm not a bassopath (although some would disagree) and on the up side, it was a piece of junk to start with, nasty, nasty ply bass I got for a few hundred quid for exactly the destiny which it eventually suffered: Smashed in the hold of a plane.
It was insured and now I've got a shiny piece of junk in its place which lives in a van. And always gets used for flying.
My lovely hand made german basses are not five feet from me as I type and will never go near those unforgiveable bastards that clearly take great pleasure in 'handling' peoples precious goods with the least care they can manage. I hate them!

[Bilbo]

Not being able to play the double bass will always be a regret for me.

I bought a small double bass in the late 90s and tried to nail it but did some damage to may hands that still lingers today (I use an ergonomic PC keyboard and vertical mouse to allow my wrists to remain relaxed when I am typing - if I don't, I get acute pains in my hands and upper arm). The problems are in my left hand and can be linked directly to poor experiences with the upright. I tried to get lessons in Farnham, Surrey but noone was around when I was (the main tutor locally, a highly rated player, would only teach during 'office hours' so I was unable to take advantage of his services). So I tried to teach myself, got it badly wrong and did some CTS type damage that continues to affect my stamina today. It doesn't seem to affect my jazz playing (thank God) but, in funk/Latin things, where there is a tendency to play more repetitive figures, the weaknesses can show by the end of a gig (and, more often, afterwards).

So I had to find my voice on electric fretless. I do OK (12 gigs a month) but the prejudice against the electric still means that I don't get to do the more classy and creative jazz gigs that DB players can get (that or the fact that I am crap and noone is telling me!!). I think one of the factors that militates against a successful outcome for me is that, being a semi-pro, it is harder to find time to 'shed' on a new and demanding instrument like the Double. So you can't build up the stamina you need to develop to nail a long gig or fast tempos on DB. So you do damage.

My favourite players are upright players: Dave Holland, Marc Johnson, Paul Chambers, Ron Carter etc and many electric players leave me cold (Marcus Miller, Victor Wooten, Steve Bailey, Bill Dickens, Jeff Berlin - they all lack soul to me). Most good jazz is played on DB and the exceptions (Steve Swallow and, eh, Steve Swallow) are few and far between.

But I still get to play so can't complain (sighs). Could have turned out a LOT worse!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='193735' date='May 7 2008, 11:56 AM']So you can't build up the stamina you need to develop to nail a long gig or fast tempos on DB. So you do damage.[/quote]

Absolutely regarding stamina, I'm lucky I have a bread and butter gig (about 80-100 gigs a year) on double playing twenties stuff, it's great fun, really good tunes and I've got the thing in my hands, it's like a paid practice regime. I would have to put in a lot of hours to keep my chops that strong without that gig. DB is like trumpet in that respect, you have to do it, to be able to do it.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='193735' date='May 7 2008, 11:56 AM']Most good jazz is played on DB and the exceptions (Steve Swallow and, eh, Steve Swallow) are few and far between.[/quote]

I agree about Steve Swallow one of my all time favourite improvisors, I think Jimmy Johnson deserves a mention at this point.

[Bilbo]

Did you hear that stuff Jimmy Johnson did with the Wayne Johnson Trio (no relation)? Some of his best work for me.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='193789' date='May 7 2008, 12:41 PM']Did you hear that stuff Jimmy Johnson did with the Wayne Johnson Trio (no relation)? Some of his best work for me.[/quote]
I haven't and I must. I've heard [i]about[/i] it, I shall look it up.