Weird looking/sounding fret positions 'Just Intonation'

[henry norton]

I've just been reading about alternatives to the Western 12 note scale and found this; [url="http://www.hansfordrowe.com/just.html"]http://www.hansfordrowe.com/just.html[/url]

I haven't found anything online with him playing this weird bass but there are a few you tube shorts covering the same kind of thing. Has anyone on here had a go on something like this???

Edited December 1, 2011 by henry norton

[Chris2112]

No, that article is very old, the bass dates from something like 1990 IIRC? I remember Station Musik in Germany had it for a while.

[leftybassman392]

Without wishing to seem immodest, I've done a series of articles on the 'Theory and Technique' forum that cover Just Intonation (amongst other things) from a theoretical viewpoint, in case anybody needs a bit of background. Articles 2, 4 and the appendix to 4 are the ones than cover Just Intonation.

Edited December 2, 2011 by leftybassman392

[henry norton]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1322812475' post='1456054']
Without wishing to seem immodest, I've done a series of articles on the 'Theory and Technique' forum that cover Just Intonation (amongst other things) from a theoretical viewpoint, in case anybody needs a bit of background. Articles 2, 4 and the appendix to 4 are the ones than cover Just Intonation.
[/quote]
I took a look at your Greek article. It's quite allot to take in but I'm kind of getting the gist. I've been trying to get my head around alternative equal temperament scales (& the equations needed to calculate the intervals) yet this 'just intonation' is a whole new level of terrifying theory to learn. Can you give me some links to your other articles?

[throwoff]

I have picked one up at Warwick HQ, it is insane, according to some staff there the only person who can actually play it is Hansford.
I have had the pleasure to see him play it live and it is a very strange instrument but works very well.

[Chris2112]

I'd love to sit and have a bit of a ditty on one for a few minutes, just to see what it was like.

[Wil]

I take it there aren't any videos of it in action?

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1322828659' post='1456328']
I took a look at your Greek article. It's quite allot to take in but I'm kind of getting the gist. I've been trying to get my head around alternative equal temperament scales (& the equations needed to calculate the intervals) yet this 'just intonation' is a whole new level of terrifying theory to learn. Can you give me some links to your other articles?
[/quote]

Well the one that covers the maths is the one headed 'appendix to installment 4' (I hope!). Scroll down until you find it if you haven't already.

Just Intonation is all to do with fraction arithmetic. If you can follow the 'appendix' post ok then you might want to have a look at this:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation[/url]

In a way it's ironic that we have trouble with it, since it's been around well over 2000 years longer than the current system (Equal Temperament), and is actually more accurate in terms of the harmonic relationships.

[BigRedX]

[url=http://www.truetemperament.com]True Temperament[/url] do replacement necks for Fender-style basses.

Atlansia have made a [url=http://www.atlansia.jp/VICTORIA.html]Victoria Bass[/url] with quarter-tone frets.

[IMG]http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/BigRedX/4B035.jpg[/IMG]

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1322848991' post='1456714']
[url="http://www.truetemperament.com"]True Temperament[/url] do replacement necks for Fender-style basses.

Atlansia have made a [url="http://www.atlansia.jp/VICTORIA.html"]Victoria Bass[/url] with quarter-tone frets.


[/quote]

True Temperament: Interesting idea, but it's still using Equal Temperament. This technology is being used to compensate for the inherent tuning issues that all guitarists have as they move up the fretboard. Bottom line - it's a trade name and a specific alignment technology for use on fretted instruments, whereas Equal Temperament and Just Intonation are ways of tuning an instrument (any instrument).

Quarter Tone bass. Again, an interesting idea (although I'm not sure how you'd use the extra notes it provides to play anything that would fit a western chromatic tuning system - I mean you could no doubt contrive something, or even write your own music around the instrument - but then who else would be able to play it?). If you plan to use it to play in a band, what's the point of all the extra frets? Come to think of it, you can achieve the same if not more with a perfectly standard fretless bass.

Edited December 2, 2011 by leftybassman392

[henry norton]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1322851090' post='1456737']
True Temperament: Interesting idea, but it's still using Equal Temperament. This technology is being used to compensate for the inherent tuning issues that all guitarists have as they move up the fretboard. Bottom line - it's a trade name and a specific alignment technology for use on fretted instruments, whereas Equal Temperament and Just Intonation are ways of tuning an instrument (any instrument).

Quarter Tone bass. Again, an interesting idea (although I'm not sure how you'd use the extra notes it provides to play anything that would fit a western chromatic tuning system - I mean you could no doubt contrive something, or even write your own music around the instrument - but then who else would be able to play it?). If you plan to use it to play in a band, what's the point of all the extra frets? Come to think of it, you can achieve the same if not more with a perfectly standard fretless bass.
[/quote]
To my relatively untrained brain the 'True Temperament' necks don't look like 'equal temperament' but do look to be 12 tone, so presumably play an approximation of the bog standard Western scale, but more 'in tune'? But like I say, my brain is relatively untrained.... The quarter tone bass looks to have 24 intervals equal temperament so would presumably play everything a normal fretted bass would play but with a sharp/flat note in between each 'normal' position, maybe players would use a bit of a fretless, melodic approach to it. The real 'just intonation' basses look like something else entirely, with different positions for each string. Yeah I'd love a go on one, it's got to be worth it just for the experience. Here's a Youtube short of a bloke who made his own [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aekjzKg3B30"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aekjzKg3B30[/url]

Thanks for the link by the way and all the other replies

[leftybassman392]

Is it ok if I explain it a bit more? Hand on heart I'm not trying to be patronising, but I'm still not sure you've quite got it Henry.

Equal Temperament and Just intonation are different ways of calculating scale intervals. Equal Temperament works by making all the intervals in the Octave exactly the same distance apart - hence the name. It uses a very specific and fairly complex formula to achieve this (it's shown in the appendix article). Just Intonation can actually be done a number of different ways, but however it's done it uses simple ratios (or fractions if you prefer) stacked on top of each other to create the intervals.

Equal Temperament has the advantage that it allows you to do all sorts of clever things very easily (changing key, for example); and it allows composers to explore much more complex melodic and harmonic ideas. Also, instruments like guitars and pianos are much easier to make because the scale relationships are the same everywhere you look. The downside is that the intervals you get are a little bit 'off' harmonically. It's a compromise that most musicians seem content to live with.

Just Intonation, however it's done, yields more precise pitching of notes than ET. The downside is that, however you do it you wind up at a point where the harmonic relationship breaks down, and you wind up with a phenomenon called a Wolf Fifth. The maths can get quite complex again, but it's a kind of built-in (I would call it endemic) flaw of the system that you simply can't get around. This limits it's potential as an expressive framework.

True Temperament: guitars and basses - indeed all fretted instruments - have inherent issues with tuning, whatever scale system you use - it's in the nature of the instrument and has nothing to do with the type of scale system itself. As far as I can see True Temperament works by placing the frets very precisely so as to overcome these issues.

Because of the limitations of Just Intonation, it simply wouldn't work at a practical level on a standard guitar (or a keyboard instrument for that matter). I'm sure it can be done up to a point, but one of the great benefits of a fretted instrument is that things like key changes are a simple matter of playing the same patterns in a different position. You can't do that with Just Intonation.

Try this link for more information:

[url="http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4#A1"]http://www.truetempe...dex.php?go=4#A1[/url]

Hope this helps. If it makes you feel any better, most musicians (even experienced professional players) struggle with some of this stuff.

Edited December 2, 2011 by leftybassman392

[henry norton]

YOU PATRONISING **#@@@%%%##!!!!!!!

Actually thanks for the explanation and the other link. Yes I'm getting there with it now, although I'm not sure I'll ever have any kind of 'deep' understanding of it.

I've tried the equal temperament formula and found it worked well (so long as I used my scientific calculator), and maybe one day I'll build a bass with a 19 or maybe even 31 tone equal temperament - it'll be a talking point if nothing else although like you said earlier, if you're playing with anyone else it's unlikely they'll be using anything other than Western style 12 chromatic notes.

As for just intonation, I'll probably wait 'til I come across a Warwick JI, or Hansford Rowe, whatever happens first

[visog]

What hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that changing temperament is a challenge to the listener as well as the player (on a fretted instrument). Many keyboards have settings to do this at the touch of a button and simply put, it sounds 'out'. Psychology experiments in this area suggest listeners can and do make the transition between what sounds normal but it's not instantaneous.

A less radical version of this approach to accurate tuning and temperament on a fretted instrument is of course Buzzy Feiten's system which I think is standard on MTDs and some other brands. Similar principles but applied to overcoming the problems of fretted instruments. Then you've got Frank Gambale's bent 1st fret guitars of a few years ago...

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1323434945' post='1463316']
What hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that changing temperament is a challenge to the listener as well as the player (on a fretted instrument). Many keyboards have settings to do this at the touch of a button and simply put, it sounds 'out'. Psychology experiments in this area suggest listeners can and do make the transition between what sounds normal but it's not instantaneous.

A less radical version of this approach to accurate tuning and temperament on a fretted instrument is of course Buzzy Feiten's system which I think is standard on MTDs and some other brands. Similar principles but applied to overcoming the problems of fretted instruments. Then you've got Frank Gambale's bent 1st fret guitars of a few years ago...
[/quote]

Yes, very good point. I know it's done on keyboards (IIRC Wendy Carlos kind of pioneered the idea in the '70's with her synth pieces - is that right? Not sure...).

I have a friend and former bandmate who had one of his guitars altered using the Feiten system. I haven't seen him since he had it done - I'll be interested to know what he thinks of the conversion. To be honest there's so many ways of playing out of tune on a fretted instrument without meaning to that I sometimes wonder why people go to all the trouble. I tend to take the view that it's a part of the instrument's uniqueness, and all these clever technologies are but a glorified (and expensive) way of p***ing into the wind. Or, to put it another way, you need to be a spectacularly precise player in the first place for it to have even the remotest chance of being beneficial - which for most of us just ain't gonna happen any time soon.

[visog]

Well to your point about precision... we're getting all hung up about quarter tones on this thread and tuning and what not, but you have Hendrix playing up a storm with his guitar barely in tune.... in fact he's tuning it mid-song in several videos of him playing; And of course, if you want infinite possibilities you just go ahead and get a fretless. I guess the challenge in the end is the same: to make good music - to which I'm still struggling with A=440, even temperament, frets as Leo Fender intended, etc.... (but Handsford's Warwick does look kind of cool!)

[visog]

Just a thought... someone who did the whole micro-intonation bit well and managed to get in the top-20 with it was Mick Karn on his fretless. Japan had some killer bass lines, usually fretless double-tracked with some cool 'out' harmonies applied as ornamentation.