D# triad question

[daz]

Just been writing out[size=5][b]*[/b][/size] the major triads, when i noticed this. Why is the major 3rd in the D# triad an F## and not a G ? I know it happens in the A# B# E# major triads too.

[size=5][b]*[/b][/size](I know they are in plenty of Interweb places ready to print out, but as my old Computer science lecturer used to say "print it out and you'll remember nowt")

Edited December 3, 2011 by daz

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='daz' timestamp='1322909376' post='1457143']
Just been writing out the major triads, when i noticed this. Why is the major 3rd in the D# triad an F## and not a G ?
[/quote]
I think because in any scale there will be C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C with each sharpened/flattened accordingly. Hence D#-E#-F##-G#-A#-B#-C##-D#.

Edited December 3, 2011 by EssentialTension

[Bilbo]

Frankly, I wouldn't write it down as D# but as Eb where the third is G. I recall that there is an argument that D# major is different to Eb major but I think that is generally archaic and less relevant today (please say if you know different). The fundamental thing is that, in normal scales and i order to make it write/readable, you have to have a ABCDEF and G. So D# major scale is D# E# F## G# A# B# C## D# - really cumbersome and an appalling read.

[EssentialTension]

Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb definitely looks better.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1322911228' post='1457160']
Frankly, I wouldn't write it down as D# but as Eb where the third is G. I recall that there is an argument that D# major is different to Eb major but I think that is generally archaic and less relevant today (please say if you know different). The fundamental thing is that, in normal scales and i order to make it write/readable, you have to have a ABCDEF and G. So D# major scale is D# E# F## G# A# B# C## D# - really cumbersome and an appalling read.
[/quote]

In Just Intonation they are two different notes - most obvious in the key of A, where D# would be noticeably different from Eb (exactly how different depends which system you use - using Pythagorean tuning gives (I think) the worst result, being some 24 cents different in pitch). In Equal Temperament (the one most of us use) they are the same because of the way note pitches are calculated. [/pedantry]

I'd certainly write it as Eb, and suspect most would.

Edit: just to be overly pedantic, Pythagorean tuning is not quite Just Intonation strictly speaking, but since the same basic method of note generation (simple ratios leading ultimately to pitch discrepancies) is used the basic argument remains valid.

Edited December 3, 2011 by leftybassman392

[Blademan_98]

+1 on the Eb

D# is overated IMO

They are the same on 'my' bass.

I too have wondered why convention stops us writing a G instead of F##

Edited December 3, 2011 by Blademan_98

[moonbass]

I think it's so when reading in a major key you don't need to use accidentals.

I think the concept of how different keys have different characters is fascinating. Having just transposed Otis Redding's White Christmas for my band from the original E to F it makes a huge difference. But I don't think D# major sounds different to Eb major. However, the same note can sound very different dependant on its position in the scale for some of the reasons mentioned above. I think the brain has different tolerances for a note being sharp or flat depending on its context. For instance the major 7th of a major scale can get away with being a little sharp but not a little flat. Whereas the minor 3rd of a minor scale can get get away with being a little flat, although you could view it as the same note.

Also I think a pianos black keys sound different to the white keys, but that could just be me!

[Kirky]

If it really was D# major, what would be the relative minor? - B#minor. It makes much more sense to use Eb major and its relative minor, C minor. That's how I I work out how to describe a note or chord. If the relative major or minor wouldn't commonly be used, I start to think I've got it wrong.

[daz]

Good question about its relative minor. I think i will do as suggested and just use Eb.

Edited December 4, 2011 by daz

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='daz' timestamp='1323002680' post='1458086']
Good question about its relative minor. I think i will do as suggested and just use Eb. )
[/quote]

Think about it this way - you'll find it easier to make friends with horn players.