Really basic beginner's question

[REDLAWMAN]

Hi everyone,

I want to restring my Precision.

I've sorted the intonation by moving my bridge saddles on my current strings and I understand that process, but currently, the saddles are not in that staggered alignment that you see from the factory when you buy a new bass: to get the intonation correct (and to get each note playing in tune) I moved them so that at the moment, the e and a string saddles are give or take equal and the same for the d & g, although the latter are closer to the neck.

Is there some sort of formula to get the saddle placements back in that diagonal line as per the factory as a starting point when I re-string?

Does it really matter, save that it looks nice?

Thanks guys.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='REDLAWMAN' timestamp='1322913835' post='1457199']
Hi everyone,

I want to restring my Precision.

I've sorted the intonation by moving my bridge saddles on my current strings and I understand that process, but currently, the saddles are not in that staggered alignment that you see from the factory when you buy a new bass: to get the intonation correct (and to get each note playing in tune) I moved them so that at the moment, the e and a string saddles are give or take equal and the same for the d & g, although the latter are closer to the neck.

Is there some sort of formula to get the saddle placements back in that diagonal line as per the factory as a starting point when I re-string?

Does it really matter, save that it looks nice?

Thanks guys.
[/quote]
It doesn't matter as long as the action and intonation are as you want them. E-A about the same and D-G about the same is not so unusual. Is your action at the 12th fret about the same for all strings? If not that might have a little effect on the bridge saddles for intonation.

When you restring, even if it's same make/model of string, you might still need to check the intonation.

[REDLAWMAN]

Yes, action uniform and as low as I can achieve without rattles!

It would be nice to start with the saddles all lined-up nicely again, though, as they all seem to be on new basses.

Is it just guess-workthen, and you simply put them in a diagonal, sloping line that's pleasing to the eye, rather than any set formula?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='REDLAWMAN' timestamp='1322914486' post='1457210']
Yes, action uniform and as low as I can achieve without rattles!

It would be nice to start with the saddles all lined-up nicely again, though, as they all seem to be on new basses.

Is it just guess-workthen, and you simply put them in a diagonal, sloping line that's pleasing to the eye, rather than any set formula?
[/quote]
Well, the formula is get the action and intonation correct, not make the bridge saddles aesthetically pleasing.

On my Precision the E saddle is furthest back, A and D are about the same, and G furthest forward.

On my Decade, the E and A are much the same, and D and G much the same but further forward.

[REDLAWMAN]

The latter is pretty much where I'm at currently.

Thanks ET; much appreciated.

[gareth1982]

The saddles are there to do a job, not to look pretty! String brand, age, condition, set up, etc can all affect the intonation of the instrument, so like has been mentioned, check the intonation frequently and don't worry about the position of the saddle relative to the others!

[REDLAWMAN]

Gareth; you know what I'm getting at though: if the way they lined up didn't matter a jot to anyone, they wouldn't send new basses out with the saddles all lined up to perfection as they do!

Edited December 3, 2011 by REDLAWMAN

[Ou7shined]

Not all necks will give you a pretty "in a line" look but give the new strings a couple of days to bed in then try again... you may get a surprise.

[gareth1982]

You've got a point actually, yea! Not that I've played many new basses, but yes, they always do look in a diagonal line. I once had to buy new extra long saddle screws for my status as I couldn't get enough adjustment on the g string saddle to get the intonation spot on. The strings were nylon coated rotosound trubass incidentally. Massively different to whatever I had on it before.

Edited December 3, 2011 by gareth1982

[REDLAWMAN]

Ou7shined: I haven't put new strings on yet. This alignment is with the current (old) ones.

I wanted to know how best to get them all lined up 'nicely' as it were before (and in anticipation of) putting on a new set.

[REDLAWMAN]

May I throw another question into the mix, please?

Is it true and to be expected that no matter how well you set-up and intonate (either at the 12th fret or to ensure that the notes lower down the neck all pitch correctly), that you will have SOME notes SOMEWHERE that won't be precisely in tune, because of the nature of stringed instruments?

Edited December 3, 2011 by REDLAWMAN

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='REDLAWMAN' timestamp='1322917191' post='1457254']
Ou7shined: I haven't put new strings on yet. This alignment is with the current (old) ones.

I wanted to know how best to get them all lined up 'nicely' as it were before (and in anticipation of) putting on a new set.
[/quote]

In that case there's no point as after you've got the new ones on it will all change again.

Once you are intonated [b]to perfection [/b](wait for the attack to disipate and make sure you 12th fret rests in perfect tune)it is not uncommon for some less well built basses to go out after about the 15/17th fret but it really depends on how exact your intonation is set in the first place. I keep at it until I can play "in tune" chords in the dusty end. Remember intonation can also be set by raising and lowering the actiona smidge... just going for the flat out lowest possible action you can isn't always necessarily the right thing to do for the bass/neck.

[REDLAWMAN]

I was thinking more some of the notes forward of the 12th fret, or should all of those be perfectly piched provided I've done everything correctly?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='REDLAWMAN' timestamp='1322916220' post='1457244']
Gareth; you know what I'm getting at though: if the way they lined up didn't matter a jot to anyone, they wouldn't send new basses out with the saddles all lined up to perfection as they do!
[/quote]
I can't say that I've seen new basses 'with the saddles all lined up to perfection as they do'. However, if that is the case it's probably because the bass has not been set up properly.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='REDLAWMAN' timestamp='1322918305' post='1457272']
I was thinking more some of the notes forward of the 12th fret, or should all of those be perfectly piched provided I've done everything correctly?
[/quote]

Well they should be. If they aren't are you possibly pressing the frets too hard while you are testing?
Also setting the intonation on it's back, in neck rest or in the normal playing position can give different results, so I always go for final tweaks in the playing position.

[Happy Jack]

http://www.jerzydrozdbasses.com/

Download his [color=#b22222][i][b]Ultimate Guide To The Perfect Bass SetUp.[/b][/i][/color]

One of the best free downloads I've ever come across.

[gjones]

As long as the open string is in tune with the same string at the 12th fret (and you get them both in tune with each other by moving the saddles at the bridge back and forward until they are) then you'll be in tune. If you aren't in tune all the way up and down the fretboard then the frets must be in the wrong place.
My bridge saddles aren't in a pleasing diagonal line, in fact they're all over the place, but my bass is in tune.

Check out this video it makes setting intonation nice and simple [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC30nJgIAJM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC30nJgIAJM[/url]

[REDLAWMAN]

Thanks very much; hugely informative and very interesting.

[Blademan_98]

That's why I play a fretless.....

[REDLAWMAN]

[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3]Thanks Johnston, I'll look into that.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3]Someone on the Fender Forum was kind enough to direct me to this:-[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3][b]You can preset the basic intonation of your bass by taking a tape measure and measuring from the inside of the nut to the center of the 12th fret [i]([/i]the fret wire itself; not the fingerboard[i])[/i]. Double that measurement to find the scale length of your bass.[/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3][b]Adjust the first-string bridge saddle to this scale length, measuring [/b][b]from the inside of the nut to the center of the bridge saddle. Now adjust the distance of the second saddle back from the first saddle, using the gauge of the second string as a measurement. For example, if the second string is .060" (1.5 mm), you would move the second-string saddle back .060" (1.5 mm) from the first saddle. Move the third saddle back from the second saddle, using the gauge of the third string as a measurement. Adjust the fourth saddle in the same manner (and fifth if you have a five-string bass).[/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3][b][i]Note: If you're using a taper-wound fourth string (and fifth if it's a five-string bass), use the actual gauge of the string for your measurement rather than the dimension of the tapered portion of the string.[/i][/b][/size][/font][/color]

Edited December 4, 2011 by REDLAWMAN

[Mr. Foxen]

That sounds pretty bodgy when you can use an electronic tuner to set intonation correct on the 12th fret and be close enough for bass purposes, and if you are tone deaf enough to not be able to do that with the harmonic and the 12th fret, then the difference probably won't matter.

Here's an article: http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/gal_tuning.htm

And an essay by my teching tutor: http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65926

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='REDLAWMAN' timestamp='1322995282' post='1457947']
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3]Thanks Johnston, I'll look into that.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3]Someone on the Fender Forum was kind enough to direct me to this:-[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3][b]You can preset the basic intonation of your bass by taking a tape measure and measuring from the inside of the nut to the center of the 12th fret [i]([/i]the fret wire itself; not the fingerboard[i])[/i]. Double that measurement to find the scale length of your bass.[/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3][b]Adjust the first-string bridge saddle to this scale length, measuring [/b][b]from the inside of the nut to the center of the bridge saddle. Now adjust the distance of the second saddle back from the first saddle, using the gauge of the second string as a measurement. For example, if the second string is .060" (1.5 mm), you would move the second-string saddle back .060" (1.5 mm) from the first saddle. Move the third saddle back from the second saddle, using the gauge of the third string as a measurement. Adjust the fourth saddle in the same manner (and fifth if you have a five-string bass).[/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=HelveticaNormal, sans-serif][size=3][b][i]Note: If you're using a taper-wound fourth string (and fifth if it's a five-string bass), use the actual gauge of the string for your measurement rather than the dimension of the tapered portion of the string.[/i][/b][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
I would totally ignore that and set the action and the intonation in the normal way.

[rennie234]

IMHO, I know its a long and probably boring thread but take a read a see what you think.

If you were to buy a new bass or guitar from some off the bigger companies i.e Dawsons etc. then 9 times out of 10 the guitar will not be suitable to play on stage with. Yes the wood used may have been dried out and left to stand for a year in the factory before the guitar is made, and yes it may have passed all quality controls before it left the factory having a a very quick and very basic set up (maybe even tuned). But then you have to considder how did the guitar get from China, Japan, USA etc to here in the UK? leaves the warm factory then either Shipped with freezing cold tempratures and no climate control what so ever or Aeroplane where the cabin would be preasurised and again very cold. Moving on ..

So that gets the guitar into the UK out of tune, high action, incorrect intonation, bent neck and most probably cold. The guitar then gets transported into warehouses for the shops, still cold etc. Then Joe Bloggs walks into the shop and askes for a 'Blah Blah guitar' "ofcorse sir i'll go and get you one out of the back/warehouse". He takes your money and your happy (but since leaving the factory nobody has even looked at the guitar) Moving on...

You then put the guitar in your car, where its warm (cold guitar + warmth = condensation). Then you get the guiar home first thing get it out of the box all the saddles are lined up all nice and clean you give it a tune up and away you go ... then you realise the actions abit high, and the intonations out and you have some fret buzz.

So to finish off after a guitar leaves the factory the next person who usual inspects it is the end customer, the bidge is there to do 1 thing and 1 thing only, set the intonation, the factory may line them up so they look nice but it will not have correct intonation.

[brensabre79]

[quote name='rennie234' timestamp='1324486383' post='1474881']
So to finish off after a guitar leaves the factory the next person who usual inspects it is the end customer, the bidge is there to do 1 thing and 1 thing only, set the intonation, the factory may line them up so they look nice but it will not have correct intonation.
[/quote]

+1 The first thing I do with any new (or secondhand for that matter) is to do a set up.

The major difference with the cheaper end basses and guitars from the £1k + ones is the amount of human contact they get. A Squier, Epiphone etc. would probably get about 10 - 20 minutes of human time throughout the entire process, including the setup - which will be approximate at best. And oftentimes just done visually (hence the nice diagonal line).

The New York luthier Jimmy D'Aquisto once said that a perfectly built guitar with the correct strings on could in theory have a perfectly straight bridge and not be out of tune. Indeed my Dad had one of his electric guitars with a fixed bridge carved from a single piece of rosewood. no adjustment whatsoever, but it was perfectly in tune. Thats because the bridge was made for my dads setup. However, most electric basses are not built to these exacting standards, and the reason they come with adjustable bridges is that different people use different strings, action heights etc. etc.

To the OP. Forget about the nice diagonal line unless you're just going to hang the bass on the wall. If you want to play it and be in tune, set the intonation right for the strings you are using regardless of what it looks like. If you use the same make and model of strings it shouldn't really need much adjustment when you change, but if you go from 40-100 flat wounds to 45-105 rounds, expect there to be some intonation/action adjustment required...