In ear monitoring problem

[jim_bass]

Not sure if this is the right place for this question, but does anyone use wired in-ear monitors with their band.

We have a 4 channel behringer headphone amp (on loan until I can afford a better one!) We use aux2 on our desk to provide an overall headphone mix to the input on the headphone amp (via a compressor/limiter). This works great as there is a volume control and level meter so it easy to get it to this right level.

I also want to add "more me" inputs onto each of the 4 headphone channels, so each band member can have a personalised mix. I want to do this at the desk end of the multicore as I'm sending the headphone signals down the returns on the multicore onto the stage (that way the person on the desk can mix the headphone levels).

I have tried sending other outputs from the desk into the aux inputs on the headphone amp, but they are really quiet so it is impossible to blend properly between the aux send from the desk and the individual instrument signals.

I'm using a subgroup output for one of the instrument signals (a mixed down drum signal) and was planning on using direct out from the other channels on the desk. Do I need to be running the direct outs/subgroups into a preamp before the headphone amp. If so, can you get a 4 channel rack preamp that would be suitable for this job? It doesn't need to have much control like a full blown mic preamp channel.

I know it's not exactly bass specific, but does anyone have a good answer?

[leftybassman392]

I actually gave essentially this same response to another thread earlier in the day that was similar but, er, different. Glad I can now put it to good use:

The most efficient way to do it is to use the auxes on the desk - however many you have, that's how many different headphone mixes you can have. The way you're doing it right now is good in the sense that you can eliminate feedback (of the unwanted variety), but the downside is that you've only got one monitor mix - and as sure as eggs is ovoid, somebody in the band ain't gonna be happy with it. What you need is some way of getting:-

a.) separate mixes for different band members,

b.) some way of getting them to the ears of their intended recipients

Auxilliary outputs from the desk are your friend here; the more you have the better. If some of your Auxes are being used for other things, try to find a different way of doing those things so you can give them to the monitoring system. (Any desk worth it's asking price will have separate aux send level controls for each channel, which means you can better accomodate 'give me more of me...' type requests - which you'll get a lot of once they realise it's available. )

You can get them to the ears of the band in one of two basic ways:

1. Run the signals along the cable snake if you have enough channels left and provide a set of individual headphones links/amps stageside; or

2. Invest in a set of wireless transmitters that can take the signal wirelessly to the band via beltpack receivers.


1. is cheaper but messy; 2 is more expensive but more elegant and a damn site easier to use.

If you don't have enough auxes currently, decide who's most important in the band (good luck with that BTW), and provide them with custom mixes. Then tell the rest of the band to work with one of the available choices (good luck with that as well).

Oh, and start saving for a desk with more aux outs.

And while you're at it, feel free to dream about the day you can afford a dedicated monitoring mixer stageside with it's own dedicated tech. Having direct outs on your current desk is a good start.

[b]Edit[/b]: the auxes need to be pre-fade of course. A lot of desks label post fade sends as auxes, when strictly speaking they're effects sends.

Edited December 6, 2011 by leftybassman392

[algmusic]

I'm in function band where we all have our own mix.. the mixer has for aux, so we're sorted as we're a 3 piece.. The singer gets 1 to his in-ear via wireless transmitter, I have 2 via my small mixer into my in-ear (i'm on drums so that's ok), the bassist has the 3 going into his mackie 350 monitor.

You should ask yourself one question.. could you all really just get the FOH? Is getting all your own mix that important? I've had it for years

I guess you could all get a small 2/3 or 4 channel mixer each to save on the money, but like leftybassman said it's costly

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1323215165' post='1460791']
I'm in function band where we all have our own mix.. the mixer has for aux, so we're sorted as we're a 3 piece.. The singer gets 1 to his in-ear via wireless transmitter, I have 2 via my small mixer into my in-ear (i'm on drums so that's ok), the bassist has the 3 going into his mackie 350 monitor.

You should ask yourself one question.. could you all really just get the FOH? Is getting all your own mix that important? I've had it for years

I guess you could all get a small 2/3 or 4 channel mixer each to save on the money, but like leftybassman said it's costly
[/quote]

Actually I like that as a solution - not only has everybody got their own mix, but the setup gives each band member their own preferred format as well.
Nice. Gets harder with more band members though, especially if lots of them want stage monitors to strut on.

Edited December 6, 2011 by leftybassman392

[algmusic]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1323215634' post='1460802']
Actually I like that as a solution - not only has everybody got their own mix, but the setup gives each band member their own preferred format as well.
Nice. Gets harder with more band members though, especially if lots of them want stage monitors to strut on.
[/quote]

I guess it the best of both for all.. I didn't of it like that.. But agreed it becomes more complex with more band members.. Some members can share

both the guitarist and I like In-ears, but the bassist is not as keen.. we all sing and harmonize so I really need to hear everything... When I play bass on the gig.. I still go In-ear, just with a long cord.. I also do that with my duo band so we only need 2 active fronts (that can handle bass), my preamp and a mixer, which is quick for setting up... It also makes like easier when you plug into the the bars PA..

Another thing about our setup is we all paid for our own monitoring and feel comfortable with as this, it's what we usually use on other gigs.. so you could ask each member to pay for what they want.

[jim_bass]

Thanks for all the replies. Here is a bit more information about our band/gear.

On a average setup we are an 8/9 piece band. Drummer, Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Keyboard, Electic Guitar, Lead Vocals and up to 3 backing vocals.

Our desk has 2 aux outputs plus 2 FX sends.

We can't use wireless systems for in ear that mo because were already using all of the 4 free channel 70 frequencies for wireless mics.

The long term plan was to put the backline (drums, bass, keys and acoustic guitar) on wired in ears and set up a wireless system of in ears for the rest of the band (when we can afford to move our wireless mics over to digital to free up some frequencies).

So without going out and buying a new desk with more aux channels, were stuck with only 2 auxes. Also the system needs to be simple to set up as we have a limited time to pack up / tear down, so I don't really want to start putting extra stuff on stage such as small mixers for band members.

[ben604]

does the desk have inserts? You could go into another submixer from your channel inserts, a small desk would probably give you another 3/4 mixes (2 aux, monitor, main outs, even panning channels to mono main outputs gives you another layer...) bit fiddly.

[SteveO]

The third way is to have your iem for you alone, taking a feed from your amp / effects chain / Di box / whatever before it goes to the desk, instead of taking a mix from the desk. This way you rely on the monitors for the sound of the rest of the band. You can easily boost your 'me level', meaning less faffing for your engineer, plus you can tweak it on the fly without having to catch the engineers eye.

Of course its not as controllable as the custom mix approach, but few musicians need to have anything other than 'more me' - perhaps the drummer will like a louder bass in his mix.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='jim_bass' timestamp='1323246542' post='1460886']
Thanks for all the replies. Here is a bit more information about our band/gear.

On a average setup we are an 8/9 piece band. Drummer, Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Keyboard, Electic Guitar, Lead Vocals and up to 3 backing vocals.

Our desk has 2 aux outputs plus 2 FX sends.

We can't use wireless systems for in ear that mo because were already using all of the 4 free channel 70 frequencies for wireless mics.

The long term plan was to put the backline (drums, bass, keys and acoustic guitar) on wired in ears and set up a wireless system of in ears for the rest of the band (when we can afford to move our wireless mics over to digital to free up some frequencies).

So without going out and buying a new desk with more aux channels, were stuck with only 2 auxes. Also the system needs to be simple to set up as we have a limited time to pack up / tear down, so I don't really want to start putting extra stuff on stage such as small mixers for band members.
[/quote]

Tricky. A band that size with only 2 auxes free and limited radio capacity has to either bite the bullet and invest, or put up with a compromise setup of some sort - some options have already been mentioned above. If it helps, there are some things you can do (most of which you're probably doing already, but hey..):-

1. Bass players and drummers work as a team so they can share one feed, and with luck your acoustic guitarist will want this feed as well.

2. Electric guitarists are a bit of a law unto themselves I'm afraid (I know this 'cos I used to be one!), so let them choose which mix they want.

3. Singers need to hear other singers (as does everybody else BTW so make sure you give the Bass/Drum feed a decent vocal level), so optimise your main mix around that. However you do it you won't please everybody, so get something everybody can live with and try to leave it alone for the rest of the gig. (Once you start tinkering with it your life will get harder very quickly!)

If you have plans to stay together a while you may want to consider having a simple onstage mixer setup for monitoring, and give someone (probably you yourself by the sound of it) the job of running it - it's a hassle but if a good monitor mix is important to you then sooner or later you're going to need to do it.

Edit: headphones are the best solution for avoiding feedback, but (as mentioned above) other options are available, especially with an onstage mixer.

Edited December 7, 2011 by leftybassman392

[algmusic]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1323253788' post='1460997']
Tricky. A band that size with only 2 auxes free and limited radio capacity has to either bite the bullet and invest, or put up with a compromise setup of some sort - some options have already been mentioned above. If it helps, there are some things you can do (most of which you're probably doing already, but hey..):-

1. Bass players and drummers work as a team so they can share one feed, and with luck your acoustic guitarist will want this feed as well.

2. Electric guitarists are a bit of a law unto themselves I'm afraid (I know this 'cos I used to be one!), so let them choose which mix they want.

3. Singers need to hear other singers (as does everybody else BTW so make sure you give the Bass/Drum feed a decent vocal level), so optimise your main mix around that. However you do it you won't please everybody, so get something everybody can live with and try to leave it alone for the rest of the gig. (Once you start tinkering with it your life will get harder very quickly!)

If you have plans to stay together a while you may want to consider having a simple onstage mixer setup for monitoring, and give someone (probably you yourself by the sound of it) the job of running it - it's a hassle but if a good monitor mix is important to you then sooner or later you're going to need to do it.

Edit: headphones are the best solution for avoiding feedback, but (as mentioned above) other options are available, especially with an onstage mixer.
[/quote]

Yep all this.. the only other issue is if the keyboard player using their own amp DI'ed or do they just Di into the desk..

TBH.. I'd say you have two main choices

1. the band suck it up and realise you have to just deal with it... That's what most have done for years
2. get a bigger mixer with more aux at least 4 and work our who will either share inears mixes or monitors (speakers).. the downside of inears in that only one person will hear it. With a 8/9 piece, speakers that are share are much more practical, as you ear the on stage sound as well.. If you don't want carry the extra speakers, which band member can share the load..

[Monckyman]

[quote name='ben604' timestamp='1323247162' post='1460896']
does the desk have inserts? You could go into another submixer from your channel inserts, a small desk would probably give you another 3/4 mixes (2 aux, monitor, main outs, even panning channels to mono main outputs gives you another layer...) bit fiddly.
[/quote]
This.
I`ve used this method, and recommended it a lot on here,only instead of direct outs or inserts, I would use splitter cables (Y Cables xlr) to split your chosen channels into another desk.
Now I was going to say it doesn`t have to be a big desk, but with 9 members you `ll need at least 12 inputs.(stereo drum sub mix and 10 mono).
If you went for a desk that could rout whatever auxes it had to pre fade, then you could use the main stereo bus as another monitor output,so you may get 4 sends from that desk and the original 2 sends from your FOH desk.
Still not enough for everyone, but 2 or 3 shared mixes on the front of the stage should be perfectly adequate,especially if they are mostly vocal mixes.
I suspect at least half your band don`t have and don`t particularly need, monitoring.

Yet another option is use a couple of monitors as sidefills on stands,and stick them on one or two mixes which should throw across the whole front of stage and still let some of the second tier non singers hear them too.
Unfortunately all your options involve spending. There are no dodges here with that many musos in the band.

After all that waffle, I don`t have an answer to your specific low level into the (Presumably HA7600?)aux input.I used to use one of these in the studio and it works fine.
BUT,as it doesn`t have a main level[b] [i]and[/i][/b] an aux in level, but just the one "pan pot" type arrangement, getting the level is a little trickier, as the more aux input you dial in, the less main input you get. so you turn up the master level and start again.
The only thing I can come up with is make sure your main input is set how you want it (mono or stereo) as you can stick two mono mixes in, AND your aux more me chan,and that may be losing you level too.
Failing that, borrow another one and see if it`s the same. it could be faulty.
The new version(HA4700) has a bit of EQ and more visual monitoring for about £70.Perhaps try one of those and if it`s the same, send it back.
MM

[jim_bass]

Thanks for all of the replies. To answer a few specific questions...

Our keyboard player used a Yamaha CP300. It has XLR outs built in, which are sent to the desk. The issue with the keyboard is that it also has quite powerful built in speakers, which depending on how the keyboard player is feeling, can be overpowering compared to the main mix. The intention was for him to turn off the built in speakers and just use in-ears. The keyboard volume then starts the guitarist off who will turn up as he is struggling with the amount of keyboard noise on stage.

I'm thinking that grouping the mixes for now would be a good compromise. In the future we are hoping to upgrade our desk with this one ([url="http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?catId=ZEDSeries&ProductId=ZED420&SubCatId"]http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?catId=ZEDSeries&ProductId=ZED420&SubCatId[/url]=) which has some more routing options.

I also like the idea of a sub mixer, will have a look into that one.

[leftybassman392]

Looks like a nice desk, and should give you plenty of options plus scope for future expansion (such as live multitrack recording). It will be worth your while planning how you can get the best from it before shelling out your hard earned, as it will save you both money and unnecessary headaches later. For the time being 4 monitor sends should be plenty with a bit of careful grouping.

As to the guitar/keyboard competition, use it as an opportunity to practise your leadership qualities and diplomacy skills! From what you've said I would think your keyboard player might be your first port of call - perhaps you could ask him why the built-in speakers need to be on after you've spent so much money on getting a properly balanced sound, and work from there. If all else fails, try offering him a monitor mix to himself. That should do the trick.

Edited December 7, 2011 by leftybassman392

[jim_bass]

Back to the original question, anyone used one of these? [url="http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?type=89&cat=15&id=139"]http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?type=89&cat=15&id=139[/url]. If you look at the manual (figure 5) it has a hookup diagram showing exactly what I was originally trying to do. I'm wondering if the direct outs (or in my case the insert loop (with a modified cable) comes before or after the channel gain or a mixing desk. Will they have a higher output than the subgoup outs?

@leftybassman - keyboard player is definately the starting point. will see how we get on from there! I'm managed to pursuade him to get a nice set if in ear headphones, but he is now saying that he might not bother using them? We'll see how that one goes...

[Monckyman]

Hi Jim. The insert point is POST gain. So you should be able to trim it to suit your desk and send enough to the HA.
edit: I just looked at the manual and you have direct outs on the AH420 so you`re sorted.
You also have a couple of Matrix outs that would allow you to mix 6 sub groups into one output so you could get another two monitor mixes out of those,say Kit=sub1 gtrs =sub 2.keys &brass=sub 3 Vocals =sub 4,add a bit bit of stereo mix if needed, and for instance main vocal on the mono mix.>send to Head amp and add "more me" from the direct out on the chan.
So you are up to 6 pretty comprehensive mixes quite easily.
The ART HA seems to do exactly the same as the Behringer, but costs about £120 more new. Worth it?
MM

[algmusic]

[quote name='jim_bass' timestamp='1323333130' post='1462028']
Back to the original question, anyone used one of these? [url="http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?type=89&cat=15&id=139"]http://www.artproaud...9&cat=15&id=139[/url]. If you look at the manual (figure 5) it has a hookup diagram showing exactly what I was originally trying to do. I'm wondering if the direct outs (or in my case the insert loop (with a modified cable) comes before or after the channel gain or a mixing desk. Will they have a higher output than the subgoup outs?

@leftybassman - keyboard player is definately the starting point. will see how we get on from there! I'm managed to pursuade him to get a nice set if in ear headphones, but he is now saying that he might not bother using them? We'll see how that one goes...
[/quote]

This is good option, if people will be using corded in-ears.. if you went wireless, there's no point really.. It takes a while to get used to in-ears also some just hate it.. some argue you lose the 'live sound'..




[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1323340748' post='1462114']

The ART HA seems to do exactly the same as the Behringer, but costs about £120 more new. Worth it?
MM
[/quote]

+1

Edited December 8, 2011 by algmusic