I know there's a myriad of neck materials, but why does no one use...

[Lfalex v1.1]

Never seen a Neck in Hickory or with Hickory laminates.

Hickory certainly grows large enough- They make pick-axe and sledgehammer handles out of it, so necks/fretboard should be manageable.
It's plenty strong enough.
Okay, it's not as pretty as Bird's Eye Maple, Wenge, Ebony, Pau Ferro, Purpleheart, Walnut, Ovangkol and all that sort stuff that can get into that part of a bass.

If it's good enough for drummer's sticks, it's good enough for me (or maybe not! )

Anyone else got any suggestions for necks/bodies that they've never seen and wondered why they're not used?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='16746' date='Jun 13 2007, 11:13 AM']Never seen a Neck in Hickory or with Hickory laminates.[/quote]

I know that hickory is very difficult to work by hand.

I wonder about its tonal characteristics too.

[Alpha-Dave]

The obvious reply is that like oak it's too good.

Large scale manufacturers want something that is easy on their time and tools such as soft-basswood for bodies and maple for necks which would reduce the cost.

For smaller 'boutique' makers then the wood/tool cost is less significant to them compared to their labour time so they might as well use something with a nice figure pattern which as far as I know hickory and oak don't have.

[BOD2]

[quote name='Alpha-Dave' post='16807' date='Jun 13 2007, 12:33 PM']The obvious reply is that like oak it's <be>too </be>good.[/quote]

I don't know that it's "too good" - after all, oak often ends up in flooring and even palettes.

You're probably right about it being difficult to work with, though. (i.e. hard on tools and more difficult to sand etc.).

Having said that, guitar makers often use ebony for fingerboards and that's like iron !

It's probably a balance between finding an attractive grained wood and wood that's easy to work with and not too heavy. There may also be some issues with the stability of the wood as regards warping/shrinking etc. which might make hickory and oak a less popular choice.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='BOD2' post='16817' date='Jun 13 2007, 12:44 PM']I don't know that it's "too good" - after all, oak often ends up in flooring and even palettes.

You're probably right about it being difficult to work with, though. (i.e. hard on tools and more difficult to sand etc.).

Having said that, guitar makers often use ebony for fingerboards and that's like iron ![/quote]
ebony sounds good too.

[Alpha-Dave]

[quote name='BOD2' post='16817' date='Jun 13 2007, 12:44 PM']I don't know that it's "too good" - after all, oak often ends up in flooring and even palettes.[/quote]

My exact point: it's cheap and readily available (so can be used in such applications), but isn't used in basses because of the other costs (tooling etc.).

As you say, stability may be an issue. I asked the question 'can I have Ebony as a 1 piece neck' on talkbass' Luthier's Corner (which I dare say is a way better resource than here for such questions) and the answer was the stability is a huge issue for Ebony so can't be used as a 1 piece neck reliably. However a 50% Ebony neck is possible, so even if Oak and Hickory were as unstable as Ebony, then they could at least be used as laminates.

[guitarnbass]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='16829' date='Jun 13 2007, 12:06 PM']ebony sounds good too. [/quote]

I always wondered why you almost never see ebony on mass produced stuff, and it's because they can't fret it by machine, because it splits or something. My classical guitar has an ebony board, but I think, (like many manufacturers who occasionally use ebony) they cover it in leather dye or something similar to give a real black appearence, it must be why my fingertips are always black after I play on it.

[The Burpster]

Why did Polymers never really take off?


Apart from limited success with Status and Uncle Ned himself, there has been hardly any takers in this department..... I find it odd! They (now) have incredible stabilty and memory they are not affected by temp and humidity like wood.... They can be considerably more dense that some woods so better for tonal qualities, the newest ones are even CNC able (anyone that has fired a Glock will know about that) ..... but they still remain an "out there' material......

Somone enlighten me.........

[Kiwi]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='17160' date='Jun 13 2007, 07:57 PM']Why did Polymers never really take off?
Apart from limited success with Status and Uncle Ned himself, there has been hardly any takers in this department..... I find it odd! They (now) have incredible stabilty and memory they are not affected by temp and humidity like wood.... They can be considerably more dense that some woods so better for tonal qualities, the newest ones are even CNC able (anyone that has fired a Glock will know about that) ..... but they still remain an "out there' material......

Somone enlighten me.........[/quote]

Do you mean graphite composite necks?

There's Modulus, Rainsong and Vigier too. Technically graphite composite is a very demanding material to design with. Its not like you can check its weight and moisture content then lob a lunk of it in a CNC mill for shaping. There's a skill in getting the layers aligned so that they're structurally efficient, then you have to understand how to mate the fingerboard to the neck, and the fingerboard has to be really stiff too. PLus, its expensive to make the molds because you need high standards of finish to let the poly finish look smooth and glossy.

Moses have necks that I suspect are more resin than graphite weave because if you keep one in a cold room you'll notice the neck is very stiff and suffering from backbow. Plus they sound a bit gutless in my experience. An all resin neck probably wouldn't be stiff enough.

I love graphite as a material, but I don't think many manufacturers have tried to tame the sound of graphite much. Its great as a structural element but really needs some dampening to sound its best. Graphite necked basses really sound best when mated to a heavy, soft body. Whether thats soft, heavy ash or whatever isn't so important - the graphite necked basses I've liked least have ALL had light bodies.

I'd love to hear what a graphite necked bass with a bubinga body would sound like - I suspect it would sound very meaty and the bubinga might tame the highs a little. I tend to see graphite being used with the same wood combinations as maple though - alder/ash etc. but unless the body woods are particularly soft, it can make the bass sound too brittle.

I also think most phenolic fingerboards sound too brittle, and if the recipe for the phenolic resin mix isn't stiff enough then the neck can warp - which is what happened with my Modulus fretless and 1st Cutlass. I reckon Vigier have got the mix right - a firm graphite 'skeleton' softened and fattened tonally with wood selected for its tonal dampening.

[BigRedX]

There's actually quite a few bass makers using non-traditional materials for the whole instrument now.

How about:

[url="http://www.basslab.de"]BassLab[/url] with their hollow "Tunable Mixed Composite"

[url="http://www.gusguitars.com/"]Gus[/url] - carbon fibre exoskeleton over a cedar core

[url="http://www.miller-instruments.com/"]Miller[/url] - hollow carbon fibre

And of course plenty of makers past and present experimenting with aluminium for neck construction.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Alpha-Dave' post='16842' date='Jun 13 2007, 01:19 PM']My exact point: it's cheap and readily available (so can be used in such applications), but isn't used in basses because of the other costs (tooling etc.).

As you say, stability may be an issue. I asked the question 'can I have Ebony as a 1 piece neck' on talkbass' Luthier's Corner (which I dare say is a way better resource than here for such questions) and the answer was the stability is a huge issue for Ebony so can't be used as a 1 piece neck reliably. However a 50% Ebony neck is possible, so even if Oak and Hickory were as unstable as Ebony, then they could at least be used as laminates.[/quote]


Oak can have a georgeous figure, depending on how it's cut - [url="http://www.britishhardwoods.co.uk/flooring/install/quarter_sawn_oak.htm"][b]Quarter Sawn oak[/b][/url] is prized for this. The downsides are that it needs to be [i]very[/i] well seasoned otherwise it will move as it sees fit & it tends to be rather weighty.

I've not found it too difficult to work (unless it's 100-110 years old, in which case it's like concrete), razor sharp blades are your friend here.

Pete.

[The Burpster]

Steve,

Thanx bud, I've learnt more in that post than I have reading several books...... So a brief and 'stereotypical' summary is that more makers could use it if they had i) the knowledge and ii) it was as cost effective as wood.....

Is that fair?

It just goes further to impress me how "forward thinking" Ned was..... Now I really must try and find a XL2-A and give it a good twang (I have always liked 'em, and now thats reaching fascination point!)

Edited June 14, 2007 by The Burpster

[Lfalex v1.1]

As an adjunct to Ped's post earlier, I find the Graphite/Resin/Phenolic board conundrum interesting. I agree that phenolic boards seem to sound clanky or clicky/plasticky. They certainly sound that way through an amp. Through a desk (studio or live), they just sound clear. They're also relatively free of dead-spots.

I own;
Vigier - Maple Neck. Graphite bars set in it (at an angle) to compensate for string load. NO TRUSS-ROD. It has a phenolic board.
Yamaha - Maple Neck. Phenolic board. Usual single truss-rod arrangement.
Fender - Maple Neck. Posiflex Graphite reinforcement. Rosewood board.

There are others that only broaden the issue;
Steinbergers
Statii - Which in graphite-necked form have truss-rods.

So, in summary, we have graphite in a number of applications;
[b]Structural[/b] (Vigier and other Rod-less necks)
[b]Reinforcing[/b] (Fender, with rods to adjust bow)
[b]Main Material[/b] (Status, Modulus, Steinberger, Moses etc. Some with Truss-rods, some without)

Fine.

So, Truss rods are there to resist neck movement due to string tension AND give the neck a controlled degree of curvature to stop fretbuzz at the centre of the strings' length where their deflection due to plucking is greatest (typically 9th - 15th frets)
Yet here we are with rodless necks! Are they "straight"? or is the relief built into the neck - sanded in perhaps?
And also, we have all graphite necks with truss-rods to adjust them! In spite of their stability...

Hmmm.

[Alemboid]

I think the problem with hickory, or any other wood exhibiting fast and slow growth patterns (including ash, oak) when used in the 'precise' bits of an instrument, is the relatively poor dimensional stabilty. While the alternating open and closed grain provides great resilience, hence the use of hickory or ash in things like drum sticks and hammers, it also tends to flexibility and dimensional change in relation to temperature and humidity. Not ideal for a neck really. It's not by accident that maple, for instance, with its close grain and consistent density, is a safer choice.

Graphite's pretty wonderful too. CK: not sure about the graphite neck/low density wood thing. My ancient Modulus/Alembic Bassstar (the one in my avatar) has the most absurdly heavy walnut (or possibly koa) body and has the thickest tone imaginable. It's too heavy to play for very long without a team of support staff though.

B

Edited June 14, 2007 by Alemboid

[Lfalex v1.1]

Isn't Wenge "sawdust" toxic, too?

It's a great wood IMO.
So is Zebrano (AKA Zebra Wenge)

I'll warrant that its being difficult to work is a prinicpal factor in Warwick using Ovangkol for necks these days.
I far prefer the feel of the old, all Wenge, ones.

I'd love an Ebony boarded bass, but I quite like the Pau Ferro on my Stingray 5 Fretless.

Purpleheart is another superb tonewood...

Edited June 16, 2007 by Lfalex v1.1

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Alemboid' post='17937' date='Jun 14 2007, 11:52 PM']Graphite's pretty wonderful too. CK: not sure about the graphite neck/low density wood thing. My ancient Modulus/Alembic Bassstar (the one in my avatar) has the most absurdly heavy walnut (or possibly koa) body and has the thickest tone imaginable. It's too heavy to play for very long without a team of support staff though.[/quote]

Ben, sounds to me like we're in agreement!


[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='17808' date='Jun 14 2007, 07:38 PM']There are others that only broaden the issue;
Steinbergers
Statii - Which in graphite-necked form have truss-rods.[/quote]

Rob will tell you that his necks don't need truss rods as they're stiff enough, but he installs them anyway so people can have more control over their set up.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='18740' date='Jun 16 2007, 11:02 AM']Rob will tell you that his necks don't need truss rods as they're stiff enough, but he installs them anyway so people can have more control over their set up.[/quote]

I can see why... And yet my "uncontrollable" (as it were!) Vigier's neck is utterly superb. Feels like it's not going anywhere, but it's [i]soooo[/i] slim and fast.

[BassBod]

Interesting discussion. My limited experience suggests that the various graphite "recipes" also sound different.

I used a Status graphite neck for a while, but really didn't get on with the clacky sound - very even and great sustain but had an edge. I also borrowed an old Zon with a glued in graphite neck - very clear and strong sounding but had much more warmth. It also had no truss rod, so I guess you'd be in trouble if it ever played up.....

BB

[Alemboid]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='18740' date='Jun 16 2007, 11:02 AM']Ben, sounds to me like we're in agreement! [/quote]

What, are you saying I didn't read your post properly?! You might be right

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='BassBod' post='18790' date='Jun 16 2007, 01:41 PM']Interesting discussion. My limited experience suggests that the various graphite "recipes" also sound different.

I used a Status graphite neck for a while, but really didn't get on with the clacky sound - very even and great sustain but had an edge. I also borrowed an old Zon with a glued in graphite neck - very clear and strong sounding but had much more warmth. It also had no truss rod, so I guess you'd be in trouble if it ever played up.....

BB[/quote]

I'm convinced that the "clack" is partly a function of the phenolic fretboards that inevitably seem to accompany graphite necks. Sounds like the glued-in Zon echoes some of the traits of the neck-through Vigier 10/90 necks.

As an adjunct to the query about graphite/structurally reinforced necks, apparently Roger Glover once took a Vigier Excess, rested it across two cabs (supporting the base of the neck and the volute area) and STOOD ON IT to prove its resilience to journalist types...

Didn't someone once de-string a Steinberger and play Baseball with it, then string it up and play it (again to demonstrate its strength)?

(Don't try this at home, kids!)

[MB1]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='16746' date='Jun 13 2007, 11:13 AM']Never seen a Neck in Hickory or with Hickory laminates.

Hickory certainly grows large enough- They make pick-axe and sledgehammer handles out of it, so necks/fretboard should be manageable.
It's plenty strong enough.
Okay, it's not as pretty as Bird's Eye Maple, Wenge, Ebony, Pau Ferro, Purpleheart, Walnut, Ovangkol and all that sort stuff that can get into that part of a bass.

If it's good enough for drummer's sticks, it's good enough for me (or maybe not! )

Anyone else got any suggestions for necks/bodies that they've never seen and wondered why they're not used?[/quote]

MB1.

They smoke pigs with it too!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='18870' date='Jun 16 2007, 05:30 PM']I'm convinced that the "clack" is partly a function of the phenolic fretboards that inevitably seem to accompany graphite necks. Sounds like the glued-in Zon echoes some of the traits of the neck-through Vigier 10/90 necks.[/quote]
I'd agree and this has been my experience. There's a lot to be said for a soft wood as a fingerboard on a graphite for taming the high end. Steve Lawson had grenadillo fingerbaords fitted to both his modulus basses.

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='18870' date='Jun 16 2007, 05:30 PM']As an adjunct to the query about graphite/structurally reinforced necks, apparently Roger Glover once took a Vigier Excess, rested it across two cabs (supporting the base of the neck and the volute area) and STOOD ON IT to prove its resilience to journalist types...

Didn't someone once de-string a Steinberger and play Baseball with it, then string it up and play it (again to demonstrate its strength)?

(Don't try this at home, kids!)[/quote]

I recall someone posting a vid of the same being done to a Warwick.

In Christchurch, NZ my bass tutor told the story about the Steinberger rep having one of the first XL2's ever made and he would demonstrate its resiliance by literally tossing it into a corner of the room. Then he'd pick it back up and it wouldn't even be out of tune. However eventually he threw it one time too many and the neck snapped at the 12th fret. Effectively a $2500 bass (back then in 1983 money) which had been reduced effectively to spare parts. How did my teacher know this? He bought the bass and had the neck glued back together with adhesive used on composite boats. I had a go on it and it still had its characteristic steinberger sound but there was no way of knowing how long the neck was going to last.

[Alemboid]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='19047' date='Jun 17 2007, 07:11 AM']he would demonstrate its resiliance by literally tossing it into a corner of the room[/quote]

It's funny you should say that. Many moons ago, when the Steinbergers first appeared, I went to try one at whichever big music shop was in Camden (London Rock Shop?). I don't know whether Steinberger had made it a requirement of any demo that the bass be rigourously abused, but after putting new strings on it to demonstrate how quick and easy that was, the guy there started using it as a sledge hammer on what I'm fairly sure was a bare concrete floor. I think the idea was to show that it didn't go out of tune very easily. Having ritually attempted its sacrifice, I was handed the bass to play. I didn't buy it.

I did get one a few years later though. It makes one wonder just how many XL2s out there are demo basses which may have gone through the same treatment.

B

[Peaty]

To come back to Alemboids very logical point about woods with strong seasonal growth bands beeing susectable to stabilitiy issues then why are tropical hard woods with little growth banding like teak and iroko not used. There are plenty of bubinga and other such hard woods around that are used that are of a similar density so why not teak,

I have scored a bunch of recycled teak planks and was thinking of making a bed with them but now i am begining to wonder if a jazz style body might be an interesting test. Does anyone know any good reason why teak should not be worth a shot.

Pete

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Peaty' post='22874' date='Jun 25 2007, 09:58 AM']I have scored a bunch of recycled teak planks and was thinking of making a bed with them but now i am begining to wonder if a jazz style body might be an interesting test. Does anyone know any good reason why teak should not be worth a shot.[/quote]

Hi Pete, I'd imagine weight might be an issue? Teak has a reputation for being a heavy wood.