Marvin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) I was looking at the [url="http://greenboy.us/fEARful/"]fEAful[/url] website and wondering whether to make a cab, so I estimated the cost and given the recommended drivers a 1212/6 would cost approx £600. Given you can buy a Barefaced Super12 for about £730 or a Genz Benz NEOX-212T for £700, is there much point in investing time and effort in a self build? Then one also has to consider resale if you ever needed to sell the cab. note: I had a go at a BFM and the angled cuts and internal gubbins made it a nightmare and I gave up on it Edited December 11, 2011 by Marvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The 12/126 is equivalent to the Barefaced Big Twin, so £960 with tweeter and neo surcharge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 It would be better if I referenced like for like I suppose That would make the self build more appealing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Prices for neo drivers have gone up just as much for manufacturers. It's the reason why Bergantino stopped making their neo cabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1323608110' post='1464910'] The 12/126 is equivalent to the Barefaced Big Twin, so £960 with tweeter and neo surcharge. [/quote] And shipping, which I guess is included in parts cost for the Fearful. Edit: and neo surcharge is £40 per woofer not £30 per woofer like I thought. Edited December 11, 2011 by Mr. Foxen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Could always buy a GK neo 212 from someone selling one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Not comparable to the Fearful again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1323619687' post='1465084'] Not comparable to the Fearful again. [/quote]+1. Not even close. Very few manufacturers are using 3012 based drivers. AFAIK only Barefaced, AudioKinesis and Baer do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1323620288' post='1465094'] +1. Not even close. Very few manufacturers are using 3012 based drivers. AFAIK only Barefaced, AudioKinesis and Baer do. [/quote] I'm almost certain that Genz Benz uses the 3012, i'm pretty much sure that's what came in my former STL-12T. I once took the speaker out and compared it to Eminence's products and it was an exact lookalike to the 3012. In the same way i believe that my current Rumbles are Deltalite 2512 loaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1323692917' post='1465802'] I'm almost certain that Genz Benz uses the 3012 [/quote]G-B uses the 2512 motor: [i]2 1/2" ...voice coil...7 oz Neodymium magnet[/i] Edited December 12, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimcroisdale Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 As a slight aside, knowing what I now know about xmax and fartout, do you think that manufacturers use the Deltalite 2512 instead of the Basslite 2012 just so that they can quote the higher wattage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='jimcroisdale' timestamp='1323710054' post='1466108'] As a slight aside, knowing what I now know about xmax and fartout, do you think that manufacturers use the Deltalite 2512 instead of the Basslite 2012 just so that they can quote the higher wattage? [/quote]Probably. Even then G-B is stretching things claiming 300 watts. Not so long ago they were also claiming -3dB to 45 Hz. They were called out on it and now they're claiming -10dB. I'd be inclined to run a 2512 in a 112, I do in mine, just to have some extra thermal capability, but in a 212 I'd save the $ and use 2012s. As far as performance goes the 2012 is the equivalent of the average stamped frame OEM ceramic driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimcroisdale Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I thought the 5mm+ Xmax was a significant improvement over most OEM drivers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='jimcroisdale' timestamp='1323710054' post='1466108'] As a slight aside, knowing what I now know about xmax and fartout, do you think that manufacturers use the Deltalite 2512 instead of the Basslite 2012 just so that they can quote the higher wattage? [/quote] The 2512 has a cast frame, which from what I understand, in general leads to greater stiffness/less resonance compared to typical pressed steel (as seen in the basslite). The frame is also important for wicking heat away from the driver, and cast alu should be better at that so in theory you'd expect the deltalite to show reduced power compression in comparison to the basslite. It's not all down to T/S parameters, how the thing performs under load matters, and Xmax is not the only relevant measure. I bet waterfall plots would favour the deltalite. In a general sense cast woofers tend to sound better, though obv there are plenty of exceptions and cast frames tend to be reserved for premium drivers so you'd expect them to perform better anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='jimcroisdale' timestamp='1323713533' post='1466156'] I thought the 5mm+ Xmax was a significant improvement over most OEM drivers? [/quote]The Ampeg ten has 4.7mm. It's true though that many OEMs aren't as good as the Ampeg. [quote]The 2512 has a cast frame, which from what I understand, in general leads to greater stiffness/less resonance compared to typical pressed steel (as seen in the basslite). The frame is also important for wicking heat away from the driver, and cast alu should be better at that so in theory you'd expect the deltalite to show reduced power compression in comparison to the basslite[/quote] The 2512 has a larger coil, which gives it higher power handling, which requires more heatsinking. The Basslite doesn't use a cast frame because with its rated power it doesn't need it. If you believe the Ampeg spin doctors a stamped frame sounds better, but that's one wagon I won't jump on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Bill, if Jeff is using a 2512 based driver they must be very diferent from the stock ones because the frame and magnet are the same as the 3012HO, can´t tell more about the cones from the picture obviously. The stated 300W always seemed very conservative in my opinion, those cabs put out a lot of sound for theyr size. I sold mine to a friend who's now using two STL-12T's under a Shuttle 9.0 and that rig goes very loud! Not much low-end but enough to fill the soud. Once again, my opinion on the Rumble drivers was based on the stock driver pictures and mine has the frame and magnet of the 2512's. I believe you may have a far better insight on this subject so any more info is always appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1323780524' post='1466883'] Bill, if Jeff is using a 2512 based driver they must be very diferent from the stock ones because the frame and magnet are the same as the 3012HO [/quote]The 2512 and 3012 frames are almost identical visually. You'd be very hard pressed to tell the difference in pictures. The heatsink and rear cup of the 3012 are larger in diameter, to accommodate the eleven oz. magnet and 3 inch coil. Since the G-B driver has a seven oz. magnet and 2 1/2 inch coil it's a 2512 variant. BTW, the 2012 has a 2 inch coil, the 40xx series 4 inch coils, so you should see a pattern in their model numbers. There are OEM 2512s with longer xmax than the standard version, but as is always the case when you change one thing you change everything, and those versions give up midrange extension and sensitivity. A 300w coil is a possibility too, but that means a larger gauge wire, which means higher Mms, which means higher Qes and lower sensitivity. I have one such sample, and sensitivity is 94dB, compared to 96dB for the stock version. Edited December 13, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Indeed, they look very similar in pictures - side by side the difference is obvious, with the 3012 being much beefier looking and substantially heavier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Exactly Alex and having had both in my hands i can confirm that the GB driver was heavier. I'm lacking of english vocabulary to discuss this so i´m posting the pics so everybody can see the diferences on the frames and magnets: You can see the diferences in their shapes. The 3012 has a lower and larger profile, bigger "magnet" and four points to attach the wire connectors as the 2512 only has two. there's also a clear difference in the place where each arm of the frame makes the angle (sorry for this non-technical description). I can guarantee that i've compared both my drivers with this pics and can safely say that the GB has the 3012ho (i'm not showing the lf pics but there's also diferences like the ones i've refered) based driver and the rumble has a 2512 based driver. I say "based" because there is in fact diferences between both drives i've owned/own and the eminence pics, these diferences are in the cones (the number of "waves" the cone has near it's larger side, where it's glued to the frame - again very techy speech! and the spiders aren't also exactly similars). Both my drivers didn't had the eminence logo sticker on the magnet! Sorry for the thread derrailing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 If your GB had 3012s in it then maybe they weren't the original drivers? GB launched that model before the 3012 drivers came to market and the GB website explicitly states that the drivers are 2.5" voice coil (whilst the 3012s are 3" voice coil). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Humm... i doubt the driver was changed... the previous owner was a BC member so he must definetly be an honest person! I'd rather believe that the driver used has somehow the same roots as the 3012 or that it could have been based on it's development... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1323798742' post='1467258'] Humm... i doubt the driver was changed... the previous owner was a BC member so he must definetly be an honest person! I'd rather believe that the driver used has somehow the same roots as the 3012 or that it could have been based on it's development... [/quote]There's also the possibility that whoever wrote the G-B ad copy that states a 7 oz magnet and 2 1/2" coil was wrong. Or that the driver was downgraded to a 2512 frame when the neo price hikes hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yep, it's possible. The cab i owned was buildt around 2009/10, before the Neo crisis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1323867775' post='1467944'] Yep, it's possible. The cab i owned was buildt around 2009/10, before the Neo crisis... [/quote] Genz Benz's website certainly used to have a bit explicitly about the driver, which they call GNX 12300. It said in that bit [size=3]'rated at 300 watts RMS and utilizes a 2 1/2" aluminum edge-wound high temperature voice coil. The 7 oz Neodymium magnet[/size]'... The sensitivity spec is lower than the nominal Eminence figure for a Deltalite though at 98dB - perhaps they tamed the mid peak below the 4k crossover but I wonder if it isn't modified with a longer voicecoil and perhaps a bigger heatsink to give a little more power handling and excursion? Over on Greenboy's forum I've seen references to it being a 3012-based design based on woofer appearance, so maybe it is indeed somewhere in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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