Fast 3 finger picking in a 4/4 time signature.

[Jellyfish]

Hello Basschat!

I'm quite the beginner bassist, but am starting from the ground up and trying to cover all techniques. I do have a bass teacher and he's great but i'm currently having trouble with a personal decision over my technique.

I find it difficult playing single notes at a high speed. If I use 2 fingers, I can't do it fast enough, but at least I know I end on the same finger every time. If I use a pick, I feel bad because I know that if I put the effort in I could become great with 3 fingers, but at least i'm always finishing on an upstroke. Now my dilemma is if I attempt to use 3 fingers, I find it hard to keep track of what note within the bar i'm currently playing.

Finishing a stroke on a different finger at the end of every bar puts me off and I get confused and want advice on if this is just a barrier that I can't break and how I can help myself get used to it. Or if it's just something that will come with practice.

Thanks.

[JakeBrownBass]

Speed comes with time mate. There's no way to rush, walk before you can run etc...

Personally I'm not a fan of the 3 finger technique but when your using three fingers while play 8th notes, there's 24 strikes before the pattern begins again, so 3 bars.

[velvetkevorkian]

It's just practice I'm afraid. I've been playing with three fingers for a few years now, but I had to spend a long time working on it to get it up to any kind of speed and consistency. Lots of metronome drills, starting slowly. You also need to practice leading with different fingers, so you can start with any of the three you're using. Eventually you get to a point where you don't have to think about what finger is coming next and you can play odd or even groupings easily.

One thing that is surprisingly effective is to give your fingers numbers and say the numbers out loud as you play. Feels kind of stupid but it really makes your brain connect with your fingers.

Hope that helps.

[Jellyfish]

Thank you velvetkevorkian, that's the kind of reply I was looking for. Really, all I wanted was someone to say 'Yeah, it's possible, i've done it!'.

And i'm aware that people aren't a fan of the three finger technique, which is understandable, but for the music I play it's a hindrance if I don't learn to use three fingers or get a fast plectrum technique.

[AttitudeCastle]

What kind of music are you playing?

I play with three fingers on my right hand but it just feels natural to me and more or less always has.

A great way to keep me solid i find, so i hope it helps you build it up from the ground, is to play along to really simple say indie or pop bass lines in 4/4 and slug away with the three fingers. DO NOT THINK ABOUT IT TOO MUCH JUST LET YOUR FINGERS MOVE and it will become second nature, i also accent the first of every 4 to pick it out though obviously only when that sounds better.

Try using your 2 fingers though, i emplore you! Speed comes with practise, and playing there is no jumps. I know two players who switched to 3 fingers one when he wasn't ready and made a mess of his playing and had to spend 6 months re-learning his right hand more or less and the other thought about it slowly then decided to do it.

Like i said for me it was how i played when i first picked up the bass, but i've studied the "technique" as it were in great depth

[Jellyfish]

I play power-inspired metal. Mainly chugging single notes at speed is my problem. Not the speed part exactly, but switching strings to play different notes. Or at really high speeds, just switching to any other note at the right time can be a problem when I play with 3 fingers.

I have been playing for about 2 or 3 months now and my two finger style and speed is pretty good I feel. I have no problems there really. But i'm at the point now where using two fingers for the speed of notes I want to play is just not optimal. So it's either 3 or or a plectrum! I'll take your suggestion and start off slow and work my way up.

[woodyratm]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1323711761' post='1466126']
What kind of music are you playing?

I play with three fingers on my right hand but it just feels natural to me and more or less always has.

A great way to keep me solid i find, so i hope it helps you build it up from the ground, is to play along to really simple say indie or pop bass lines in 4/4 and slug away with the three fingers. DO NOT THINK ABOUT IT TOO MUCH JUST LET YOUR FINGERS MOVE and it will become second nature, i also accent the first of every 4 to pick it out though obviously only when that sounds better.

Try using your 2 fingers though, i emplore you! Speed comes with practise, and playing there is no jumps. I know two players who switched to 3 fingers one when he wasn't ready and made a mess of his playing and had to spend 6 months re-learning his right hand more or less and the other thought about it slowly then decided to do it.

Like i said for me it was how i played when i first picked up the bass, but i've studied the "technique" as it were in great depth
[/quote]

Yup! Agreed.
[quote name='ChristopherGilbert' timestamp='1323790910' post='1467087']
I play power-inspired metal. Mainly chugging single notes at speed is my problem. Not the speed part exactly, but switching strings to play different notes. Or at really high speeds, just switching to any other note at the right time can be a problem when I play with 3 fingers.

I have been playing for about 2 or 3 months now and my two finger style and speed is pretty good I feel. I have no problems there really. But i'm at the point now where using two fingers for the speed of notes I want to play is just not optimal. So it's either 3 or or a plectrum! I'll take your suggestion and start off slow and work my way up.
[/quote]

I used to play in a Power Metal band and could do the stuff with 2 fingers. 3 was more natural though so it just made life that little bit easier. Start slow and just count 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 - speed comes with practice.

Also to quote Mr Timmy C in RATM - "If you can do it with one finger, you should. If you can do it with two finger, you should choose over three."

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='ChristopherGilbert' timestamp='1323790910' post='1467087']
I play power-inspired metal. Mainly [b]chugging single notes at speed is my problem[/b]. Not the speed part exactly, but [b]switching strings[/b] to play different notes. Or at really high speeds, just switching to any other note at the right time can be a problem when I play with 3 fingers.

I have been [b]playing for about 2 or 3 months[/b] now and my two finger style and speed is pretty good I feel. I have no problems there really. But i'm at the point now where using two fingers for the speed of notes I want to play is just not optimal. So it's either 3 or or a plectrum! I'll take your suggestion and start off slow and work my way up.
[/quote]

The parts i've put in bold all have the same answer.

You've not been playing long & speed doesn't just happen over night. It takes practice, time & perseverance.
You've only been playing for 3 months so if your wanting to move to 3 fingers there's nothing wrong with it, but your going to have to sit down and practice playing with 3 fingers slowly first, especially if your saying your getting confused with skipping strings.
Concentrate on which fingers are leading.
Playing with a pick, 1 finger, 2 fingers, 3 fingers, your thumb, it's all the same. All of them takes practice to build up speed but the important thing is to start slowly, hear every note your playing, make sure there even and [b]build[/b] speed over time.

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='ChristopherGilbert' timestamp='1323790910' post='1467087']
I play power-inspired metal. Mainly chugging single notes at speed is my problem. Not the speed part exactly, but switching strings to play different notes. Or at really high speeds, just switching to any other note at the right time can be a problem when I play with 3 fingers.

I have been playing for about 2 or 3 months now and my two finger style and speed is pretty good I feel. I have no problems there really. But i'm at the point now where using two fingers for the speed of notes I want to play is just not optimal. So it's either 3 or or a plectrum! I'll take your suggestion and start off slow and work my way up.
[/quote]

Based on what you've said i'd say stick with two fingers for at least another year. I know that sounds ridiculous but trust me it'll be worth it in the long run.

Then if you're still feeling it's needed switch to 3. If it doesn't feel comfertable or natural then chances are you'll force it to feel natural which could take 10 years or more, or maybe not. Everyone is different making this hard to answer.

How fast is the stuff you're doing? I play with 2 fingers in a power metal band as it's not too fast so doesn't feel that unconfertable but our music could be totally different to yours.

Look at John Entwistle and Steve Harris, lightning speed, 2 fingers!

Playing with 3 fingers will make you think triplets for a long long time, when you finally build up a decent speed all your "bursts" will then be triplets which you'll have to over come which i guess relates much more to the orginal post.

Playing with three fingers doesn't directly translate to playing fast.

What i'm trying to say is, are you certain you want to play with 3 fingers, and how are you so sure? Not to sound cynical or anything and i'm not trying to put you off!

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1323799841' post='1467281']
The parts i've put in bold all have the same answer.

You've not been playing long & speed doesn't just happen over night. It takes practice, time & perseverance.
You've only been playing for 3 months so if your wanting to move to 3 fingers there's nothing wrong with it, but your going to have to sit down and practice playing with 3 fingers slowly first, especially if your saying your getting confused with skipping strings.
Concentrate on which fingers are leading.
Playing with a pick, 1 finger, 2 fingers, 3 fingers, your thumb, it's all the same. All of them takes practice to build up speed but the important thing is to start slowly, hear every note your playing, make sure there even and [b]build[/b] speed over time.
[/quote]

Could not agree more!

[quote name='ChristopherGilbert' timestamp='1323790910' post='1467087']
I play power-inspired metal. Mainly chugging single notes at speed is my problem. Not the speed part exactly, but switching strings to play different notes. Or at really high speeds, just switching to any other note at the right time can be a problem when I play with 3 fingers.

I have been playing for about 2 or 3 months now and my two finger style and speed is pretty good I feel. I have no problems there really. But i'm at the point now where using two fingers for the speed of notes I want to play is just not optimal. So it's either 3 or or a plectrum! I'll take your suggestion and start off slow and work my way up.
[/quote]

If playing across the strings is an issue that screams to me slow down. Don't try and play fast till you can do what you want and need to do comfertably the way things currently are. THEN think about technique and make it mathematical if you wish.

Or you could end up messing your technique up and needing to correct it along the line which is significantly harder

[mcgraham]

Stick with 2 fingers.

I used four fingers exclusively for a few years (the Matt Garrison technique) and since went back to 2 finger technique on the recommendation (general, not personal recommended to me ) of Janek Gwizdala that 2 fingers can get you up to great speeds (e.g. 16ths at 200bpm), it just takes work. In the same way, the perceived speed benefit of 3/4 fingers actually requires as much work (if not more) because you need to be able to start each pattern on any finger... hence every exercise you do needs to be repeated for every finger you incorporate... Most people who say they use 3 or 4 have spent longer getting that technique to work than it would've taken them to get their 2 finger technique up to scratch... oh and it's never quite perfect - there's always issues to try and root out because of asymmetries between fingers.... therefore the fewer fingers you're using the fewer asymmetries and imbalances you're trying to address.

The main pro of multi finger techniques (more than 2 at least) is that it is less tiring to play fast for long periods of time, but we are talking extremely fast flurries of notes that consistently go on for minutes without a break. I put in the work to have the technique to do that with 4 fingers (and 3)... but it really isn't that musical and you'll find you drop back to halving or quartering the number of notes you play per bar rather than mirroring guitar lines...

In any case, stick with 2 fingers for now. There's some good threads on here to help you with it. In some ways it's easier, in some ways it's harder, but my experience is that the pros outweigh the relative cons.

Edited December 13, 2011 by mcgraham

[Jellyfish]

I've read all the replies and just want to say thank you to everyone. If I were to use just two fingers, are there any other techniques I can use to get speed up apart from just practicing with a metronome?

[Wil]

I've been playing with 3 fingers for over a decade, and for fast stuff, I'm still more consistant with 2. Or a pick...

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='ChristopherGilbert' timestamp='1323880363' post='1468194']
I've read all the replies and just want to say thank you to everyone. If I were to use just two fingers, are there any other techniques I can use to get speed up apart from just practicing with a metronome?
[/quote]

Practise scales to make sure you're consistantly quick across the strings too,

With speed always play at a speed you feel ready and comfertable at, and then when you need it that burst if speed should be there is kind of how i think of it

[mcgraham]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/29644-finger-speed/page__view__findpost__p__958020__hl__hanon__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.u...__fromsearch__1[/url]

Check that out. I started using and now highly recommend Hanon ever since Janek Gwizdala said he used it. They are piano exercises, and as such they are demanding on bass. Pick a few (anywhere from one of them to four of them) and get them under your fingers, then run them with a metronome. Start really slowly. Get your technique right slow, cos if it ain't right when you play slow it sure as hell won't be right when you play fast. Make sure to do every exercise TWICE, once starting it on your index finger, once starting it on your middle finger.

Search for Gary Willis on youtube. Ignore the talk about the third finger, waste of time. What is important is to watch him talk about getting your next finger in position to pluck WHILST the other finger is plucking... that way as soon as one note is done you are ALREADY ready to pluck the next one, rather than then having to get your finger in position for the next note. Turns it from a sequential process to a simultaneous process.

That + Hanon + Metronome = world class chops. There are other great routes too, this is just one approach but that will get you killer technique very quickly.

Edited December 16, 2011 by mcgraham

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1324032780' post='1469943']
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/29644-finger-speed/page__view__findpost__p__958020__hl__hanon__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.u...__fromsearch__1[/url]

Check that out. I started using and now highly recommend Hanon ever since Janek Gwizdala said he used it. They are piano exercises, and as such they are demanding on bass. Pick a few (anywhere from one of them to four of them) and get them under your fingers, then run them with a metronome. Start really slowly. Get your technique right slow, cos if it ain't right when you play slow it sure as hell won't be right when you play fast. Make sure to do every exercise TWICE, once starting it on your index finger, once starting it on your middle finger.

Search for Gary Willis on youtube. Ignore the talk about the third finger, waste of time. What is important is to watch him talk about getting your next finger in position to pluck WHILST the other finger is plucking... that way as soon as one note is done you are ALREADY ready to pluck the next one, rather than then having to get your finger in position for the next note. Turns it from a sequential process to a simultaneous process.

That + Hanon + Metronome = world class chops. There are other great routes too, this is just one approach but that will get you killer technique very quickly.
[/quote]

In what way is it a waste of time, may i ask?

[mcgraham]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that using a third finger in general is a waste of time. What I'm saying is the way Gary Willis uses that third finger is inefficient. The reason he uses it is to always use it as an ascending finger for ascending to a nearby string... but it introduces the very problems it tries to solve. I'll give a more detailed explanation later, I'm a bit short on time right now.

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1324195393' post='1471592']
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that using a third finger in general is a waste of time. What I'm saying is the way Gary Willis uses that third finger is inefficient. The reason he uses it is to always use it as an ascending finger for ascending to a nearby string... but it introduces the very problems it tries to solve. I'll give a more detailed explanation later, I'm a bit short on time right now.
[/quote]

Ah ok, i miss understood you, i understand what you mean now!

[mcgraham]

Good good. Yea, GW advocates that having your third finger always on an adjacent string means it's really easy to move up a string. But what if you are doing (say) an exercise ascending your strings with two plucks per string...
1st string = index, middle;
2nd string = third finger, then either index/middle;
3rd string = third finger, then either index/middle...
4th string = third finger, then either index/middle... etc etc

So now I'm alternating with 3rd and 1st/2nd where I'd normally just do 1st/2nd regardless of what I'm playing. This means you are having to learn to play strict alternation between multiple selected pairs out of the three... that's SO much more effort for little to no reward when all that time could be spent just drilling yourself on 2 fingers.

This is why it's worth going for 2 fingers generally. Yes it can feel harder and on paper could seem less fruitful than multi-finger techniques... but the amount of work that multi-finger techniques require you could instead spend on 2 fingers and become a monster player. All it takes is going at 2 finger technique the same way you would go at a multi-finger technique - i.e. with an attitude of 'I WILL master this and I CAN be as fast as <<insert name>> using this technique'. I'm convinced it's psychological... the guys who went at multi-finger techniques invested loads of time and just believed the multi-finger technique to be infallible, hence stuck at it and reinforced desire to practice cos they believed they technique could do everything they wanted. if you take the same mentality to 2 finger technique the results are astounding.

[colin100]

If its any help when I started playing nearly 20 years ago I decided to use 3 fingers. I made up my own technique where I decided not to play 2 notes next to each other with the same finger. What ended up happening was that I used all 3 fingers in rotation. To put it in another way if numbered my fingers 1 to 3 then my notes would be played with finger 1 then 2 then 3 then 1 then 2 then 3 etc regardless of which string Im on and I still use this effectively. I dont even think about which finger Im going to use, it just happens and always works. I also use my thumb for slappy stuff. But as many people have said it takes practice but once you ve got it then youve got it. I think for the fastest playing then a pick is the best and easiest but I rarely use one unless I want a particular sound that comes from playing with a pick as I can get fast enough with my fingers.

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='colin100' timestamp='1324676776' post='1477050']
If its any help when I started playing nearly 20 years ago I decided to use 3 fingers. I made up my own technique where I decided not to play 2 notes next to each other with the same finger. What ended up happening was that I used all 3 fingers in rotation. To put it in another way if numbered my fingers 1 to 3 then my notes would be played with finger 1 then 2 then 3 then 1 then 2 then 3 etc regardless of which string Im on and I still use this effectively. I dont even think about which finger Im going to use, it just happens and always works. I also use my thumb for slappy stuff. But as many people have said it takes practice but once you ve got it then youve got it. I think for the fastest playing then a pick is the best and easiest but I rarely use one unless I want a particular sound that comes from playing with a pick as I can get fast enough with my fingers.
[/quote]

MASSIVE +1

I'm the same, though i've not been playing/Alive 20 years

I play with a pick when it sounds better, i've trained switches so can switch from pick to fingers mid song, but for fast stuff has to be fingers, feel better, more natural and i can play much faster finger style than with a pick but thats me! (Plus my picking isn't of the same level)