Do you think that "Real" Musicians era is going to end ?

[jackers]

[quote name='seashell' timestamp='1323889008' post='1468384']
And if you have to re-think your plans and go in another direction eventually, at least you'll know you've tried.
You won't be sitting there in 20 years time thinking 'I could have been a contender'.
[/quote]

Exactly, there is nothing worse than sitting there thinking 'I wonder what would have happened if.....

[Chris2112]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1323888902' post='1468382']
With the job market as it is, and the fact that there are so many students, just having the degree doesn't get you as far as it used to.
[/quote]

Correct, and exactly why you should be making the best of the one chance you get, rather than frittering it away on a music course.

By all means, study music in your own time. It is something that is immensely satisfying to do. But it won't get you far in the real world, and you could find yourself busking in a dole queue sooner than you'd like to think!

[MusicLover20015]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1323888902' post='1468382']
I do understand what you are saying, but that shouldn't be a big factor in why you go to uni. With the job market as it is, and the fact that there are so many students, just having the degree doesn't get you as far as it used to.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that im valuing the degree at the end, as i think i did say, i do want to progress as a musician and someone stated before, meet others that are around my age and love music. I mean i know some people who kinda didnt bother going uni and said ill rough it out playing drums, guitar, they kinda ended in fast food, so you see as well as doing something i love i know that i will have a peice of paper that shows it as well

[risingson]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323887951' post='1468341']
I say this all the time, but studying music at University has to be one of the silliest ideas going these days. It's a lovely thing to do if you have no aspirations to own a house or get a job, but in the real world, a music degree is as much use to an employer as as a wad of used toilet paper. You might enjoy indulging your hobby for a couple of years but beyond university and the meagre pickings of the music world you'll not have much to show for the colossal debt you've accrued.
[/quote]

This isn't true, and with the greatest of respect, spoken like someone who obviously has no understanding of what a lot of the good musical institutes are designed for. That goes for all the people harping on about how the degree at the end of it means squat.

One massive piece of advice I'll offer anyone planning on going to study music with a view to becoming a working musician: make sure you're going to University for the right reasons. Go to improve your craft, make contacts for future life and enjoy learning and being creative in an environment that will generally breed a high class of musician, depending on the institute you're at. You do not go to these places for the degree, in fact the degree should be an afterthought, albeit an afterthought that no one can take away from you for the rest of your life.

As far as the death of the 21st century musician, well that's an entirely unpredictable thing and whoever claims that we're all on the path to being replaced by machines is scare mongering. True, much of the session work has died in many areas, but not all of the work has suddenly dried up, why would it? There will always be practical applications for the most talented musicians who want to work, and if you're a good musician then there should never be any reason for you to be out of pocket. You need to be outgoing, organised, willing to travel and open to new ideas, talent is just the half of it. You need to be ready for most eventualities, and you'll need to be able to read and understand music. With these skills under your belt, you'll hopefully have a long and prosperous career as a musician.

Edited December 14, 2011 by risingson

[steve-soar]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1323889178' post='1468395']
This isn't true, and with the greatest of respect, spoken like someone who obviously has no understanding of what a lot of the good musical institutes are designed for.

One massive piece of advice I'll offer anyone planning on going to study music with a view to becoming a working musician: make sure you're going to University for the right reasons. Go to improve your craft, make contacts for future life and enjoy learning and being creative in an environment that will generally breed a high class of musician, depending on the institute you're at. You do not go to these places for the degree, in fact the degree should be an afterthought, albeit an afterthought that no one can take away from you for the rest of your life.

As far as the death of the 21st century musician, well that's an entirely unpredictable thing and whoever claims that we're all on the path to being replaced by machines is scare mongering. True, much of the session work has died in many areas, but not all of the work has suddenly dried up, why would it? There will always be practical applications for the most talented musicians who want to work, and if you're a good musician then there should never be any reason for you to be out of pocket. You need to be outgoing, organised, willing to travel and open to new ideas, talent is just the half of it. You need to be ready for most eventualities, and you'll need to be able to read and understand music. With these skills under your belt, you'll hopefully have a long and prosperous career as a musician.
[/quote]This young man has called it.

[OliverBlackman]

chris 2112 i would love to know your background. You sound like a bitter old git in these posts

[jackers]

[quote name='MusicLover20015' timestamp='1323889143' post='1468393']
I'm not saying that im valuing the degree at the end, as i think i did say, i do want to progress as a musician and someone stated before, meet others that are around my age and love music. I mean i know some people who kinda didnt bother going uni and said ill rough it out playing drums, guitar, they kinda ended in fast food, so you see as well as doing something i love i know that i will have a peice of paper that shows it as well
[/quote]

Ofcourse, and I didn't mean to make it sound like you had said that. I was just saying that in my personal experience, (finished a chemistry degree with a first), the degree isn't what really matters anymore, it's the transferrable skills, and I think providing you put the work in, that the music degree can be worthwhile.

I have taken the option of doing a Chemistry PhD at Oxford, as it lets me do some truly amazing work, and also gets me some great connections for later in life.

[MusicLover20015]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1323889178' post='1468395']
This isn't true, and with the greatest of respect, spoken like someone who obviously has no understanding of what a lot of the good musical institutes are designed for. That goes for all the people harping on about how the degree at the end of it means squat.

One massive piece of advice I'll offer anyone planning on going to study music with a view to becoming a working musician: make sure you're going to University for the right reasons. Go to improve your craft, make contacts for future life and enjoy learning and being creative in an environment that will generally breed a high class of musician, depending on the institute you're at. You do not go to these places for the degree, in fact the degree should be an afterthought, albeit an afterthought that no one can take away from you for the rest of your life.

As far as the death of the 21st century musician, well that's an entirely unpredictable thing and whoever claims that we're all on the path to being replaced by machines is scare mongering. True, much of the session work has died in many areas, but not all of the work has suddenly dried up, why would it? There will always be practical applications for the most talented musicians who want to work, and if you're a good musician then there should never be any reason for you to be out of pocket. You need to be outgoing, organised, willing to travel and open to new ideas, talent is just the half of it. You need to be ready for most eventualities, and you'll need to be able to read and understand music. With these skills under your belt, you'll hopefully have a long and prosperous career as a musician.
[/quote]

Perfect

[MusicLover20015]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1323889457' post='1468407']
Ofcourse, and I didn't mean to make it sound like you had said that. I was just saying that in my personal experience, (finished a chemistry degree with a first), the degree isn't what really matters anymore, it's the transferrable skills, and I think providing you put the work in, that the music degree can be worthwhile.

I have taken the option of doing a Chemistry PhD at Oxford, as it lets me do some truly amazing work, and also gets me some great connections for later in life.
[/quote]

Oh sorry about that then, you can interpret text in many different ways lmao

And i do think its just down to motivation, willingness to better yourself and generally putting yourself out there as well as having the talent

[Chris2112]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1323889178' post='1468395']
This isn't true, and with the greatest of respect, spoken like someone who obviously has no understanding of what a lot of the good musical institutes are designed for. That goes for all the people harping on about how the degree at the end of it means squat.
[/quote]


What they're designed for? Making money, as Mr Thunes so rightly pointed out? Universities are obliged to award you a degree that is actually going to get you anywhere in life, they're just there to make money. Using your loaf is what will get you something out of university, and that means picking a degree that could get you somewhere.

Fancy that you finish university, and lo, you did not turn out to be Anthony Jackson in disguise and your phone is not ringing with offers of gigs and work. You put yourself out there looking for a job. Sadly, the pro players got there first and so did the other thousands of people who graduated with a music degree this year. You now have to look into the real world and get a CV out there. It says 'BA Hons Music' at the top, a nice succinct summary that lets an employer throw it straight into the bin without having to worry they're overlooking someone of value. You, on the other hand, are left trying to work out how you're going to see off over £10,000 worth a debt.

It's harsh, but it's true. I was lucky to be bailed out of university with a 35 year contract for work after my first year, so I never accumulated too much debt. If I were faced with the same decision again, I'd probably not go to uni this time around. I certainly wouldn't go to study something as frivolous as music.

[seashell]

And another thing...

There will always be people telliing you that having a degree in pretty well anything other than Business Studies is a waste of time.
They were telling us that when I was at Uni back in 1976, only then they were accusing us of wasting tax payers money rather than our own!

Plus ca change.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1323889417' post='1468405']
chris 2112 i would love to know your background. You sound like a bitter old git in these posts
[/quote]

Bitter? No, A realist, surely. I studied at uni for a year and left when I got a job with a 35 year contract. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade or make their dreams sound silly but the real world is a tough, unforgiving place and the competition is more numerous and better qualified than ever. You owe it to yourself to give yourself the best chance.

[jackers]

[quote name='MusicLover20015' timestamp='1323889656' post='1468413']
Oh sorry about that then, you can interpret text in many different ways lmao

And i do think its just down to motivation, willingness to better yourself and generally putting yourself out there as well as having the talent
[/quote]

No worries dude

Providing you go into it knowing what you are getting is what you want, then you will learn a great deal, and it will be a really good experience.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323889699' post='1468414']

It's harsh, but it's true. I was lucky to be bailed out of university with a 35 year contract for work after my first year, so I never accumulated too much debt. If I were faced with the same decision again, I'd probably not go to uni this time around. I certainly wouldn't go to study something as frivolous as music.
[/quote]

Music ain't frivolous blud, really. But it's certainly vocational. If you have no passion for it, you are f***ed.

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323889798' post='1468419']
Bitter? No, A realist, surely. I studied at uni for a year and left when I got a job with a 35 year contract. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade or make their dreams sound silly but the real world is a tough, unforgiving place and the competition is more numerous and better qualified than ever. You owe it to yourself to give yourself the best chance.
[/quote]

so your not a professional bass player then... think that pretty much sums up how relevant your posts are

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323887951' post='1468341']
... I say this all the time, but studying music at University has to be one of the silliest ideas going these days. It's a lovely thing to do if you have no aspirations to own a house or get a job, but in the real world, a music degree is as much use to an employer as as a wad of used toilet paper. You might enjoy indulging your hobby for a couple of years but beyond university and the meagre pickings of the music world you'll not have much to show for the colossal debt you've accrued.
[/quote]
I can't say I agree with this but, I'm interested, what subjects do you think are worth studying?

[bassfunk]

Thought I'd get my tuppence in here! I did a HND in Pop Music Performance, I feel I gained loads of experience over the two years that it would have taken me years to amass if working as a 'pro' musician. I also gained loads of contatcs as my tutors were real life working musicians and loads of the guys on the course are too. I'm not the player I was when I was studying because I don't practice as much as I did then, but some of the guys who managed to make a name and living from music after the course are phenomenal now (two of the guitarists just bought themselves houses).

I now play in a fairly busy wedding band, and I have a full time job (gained with those all important transferable skills) where I earn just as much as my wife who has a 'proper' degree.

I would say if that's what you want to study, go for it. Put your all into it and try to gain as many contacts and as much experience as you can out of it. Pick a course where the tutors are actually working, gigging musicians. It's never too late in life to change your career path if you find it's not for you. My mum did a teacher training course at 48 years old and now she loves teaching and wouldn't want to do anything else.

[OliverBlackman]

as an example of music courses working. Tom Kent, who is a basschat member, finished ACM 4 months ago and he seems very busy with all the work hes got as a musician

[Chris2112]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1323889930' post='1468424']
so your not a professional bass player then... think that pretty much sums up how relevant your posts are
[/quote]

I could be snide and make a comment about how your illiterate posts give me some idea of why you're working as a string plucker these days but I won't. You probably think I'm being mean spirited and a killjoy, I'm not. I'm just giving some real world perspective on this matter, in stark contrast to the usual back-slapping cries of "f*** the jobs market"

[risingson]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323889699' post='1468414']
What they're designed for? Making money, as Mr Thunes so rightly pointed out? Universities are obliged to award you a degree that is actually going to get you anywhere in life, they're just there to make money. Using your loaf is what will get you something out of university, and that means picking a degree that could get you somewhere.

Fancy that you finish university, and lo, you did not turn out to be Anthony Jackson in disguise and your phone is not ringing with offers of gigs and work. You put yourself out there looking for a job. Sadly, the pro players got there first and so did the other thousands of people who graduated with a music degree this year. You now have to look into the real world and get a CV out there. It says 'BA Hons Music' at the top, a nice succinct summary that lets an employer throw it straight into the bin without having to worry they're overlooking someone of value. You, on the other hand, are left trying to work out how you're going to see off over £10,000 worth a debt.

It's harsh, but it's true. I was lucky to be bailed out of university with a 35 year contract for work after my first year, so I never accumulated too much debt. If I were faced with the same decision again, I'd probably not go to uni this time around. I certainly wouldn't go to study something as frivolous as music.
[/quote]

I suspect your qualm in all of this is your opposition to Universities in general as opposed to having any subjective view on what these institutes can offer you, thus I would argue that you are ill-placed to comment on what can be offered to fledgling musicians who choose Music as a degree. Needless to say, I have many, many friends who are working for the latest musical acts down in London and are keeping extraordinarily busy, largely because of the contacts that they made during their time studying. Furthermore, you seemed to ignore my point about the degree actually meaning very little at the end of your course.

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323890139' post='1468433']
I could be snide and make a comment about how your illiterate posts give me some idea of why you're working as a string plucker these days but I won't. You probably think I'm being mean spirited and a killjoy, I'm not. I'm just giving some real world perspective on this matter, in stark contrast to the usual back-slapping cries of "f*** the jobs market"
[/quote]

Surely it's not real world perspective if you've not tried to live in the shoes of a working musician.

Your giving a perspective from what i'm assuming is a man thats sat behind a desk looking at a computer screen for 30 odd years.

I'm happy that you were sorted for 35 years after a year of uni but i couldn't think of anything worse!

Edited December 14, 2011 by JakeBrownBass

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='MusicLover20015' timestamp='1323887464' post='1468335']
[font=comic sans ms,cursive]Hi,[/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]I just wanted to get some views from you guys who are all musicians....[/font]
[font=comic sans ms,cursive] [/font] [font=comic sans ms,cursive] [/font]
[/quote]

I knew there was something that wasn't quite right in the OP...

[Chris2112]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1323890267' post='1468438']
I suspect your qualm in all of this is your opposition to Universities in general as opposed to having any subjective view on what these institutes can offer you[/quote]

I suspect you haven't been reading what I've read, as I must have said 'get a good degree' in one way or another 100 times already in this thread!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323890139' post='1468433']
I could be snide and make a comment about how your illiterate posts give me some idea of why you're working as a string plucker these days but I won't. You probably think I'm being mean spirited and a killjoy, I'm not. I'm just giving some real world perspective on this matter, in stark contrast to the usual back-slapping cries of "f*** the jobs market"
[/quote]
Come on mate, that's a bit crass. You have good points, like most on this thread, it's a fascinating subject, don't get it locked. Threads get locked damn quick at the moment.

[MusicLover20015]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1323889830' post='1468421']
No worries dude

Providing you go into it knowing what you are getting is what you want, then you will learn a great deal, and it will be a really good experience.
[/quote]

And if that dosen't work out too good, im pretty nifty on the Tech side of music as well, so hopefully its a win/win for me. Time will tell.