Do you think that "Real" Musicians era is going to end ?

[Chris2112]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1323890276' post='1468439']
Your giving a perspective from what i'm assuming is a man thats sat behind a desk looking at a computer screen for 30 odd years.
[/quote]

That would be hell. I wanted a job that got me out and about, giving me something different every day and a chance to use my loaf. Add to that good prospects for promotion and sideways transfers, so if I get bored of doing one thing I can go and do another. No, I wouldn't be signing up to look at a computer screen for thirty years unless they paid me a great sum!

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323889699' post='1468414']
What they're designed for? Making money, as Mr Thunes so rightly pointed out? Universities are obliged to award you a degree that is actually going to get you anywhere in life, they're just there to make money. Using your loaf is what will get you something out of university, and that means picking a degree that could get you somewhere.

Fancy that you finish university, and lo, you did not turn out to be Anthony Jackson in disguise and your phone is not ringing with offers of gigs and work. You put yourself out there looking for a job. Sadly, the pro players got there first and so did the other thousands of people who graduated with a music degree this year. You now have to look into the real world and get a CV out there. It says 'BA Hons Music' at the top, a nice succinct summary that lets an employer throw it straight into the bin without having to worry they're overlooking someone of value. You, on the other hand, are left trying to work out how you're going to see off over £10,000 worth a debt.

It's harsh, but it's true. I was lucky to be bailed out of university with a 35 year contract for work after my first year, so I never accumulated too much debt. If I were faced with the same decision again, I'd probably not go to uni this time around. I certainly wouldn't go to study something as frivolous as music.
[/quote]

+1 to this. Most university courses are not externally accredited and therefore the uni can basically teach you whatever the hell they want to. They want to have as many students as possible so that they can earn more money and therefore they will put claims about how fantastic your opportunites are after this degree blah blah blah. It's all a load of crap. I certainly wouldn't reccomend going to uni and wasting everyones' money for a degree like art or music, but if you must, then don't expect to get a job at the end of it. Think of it as a nice experience which will allow you to harbour loads of nice memories to get you through 5 decades of burger-flipping

[xilddx]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1323890553' post='1468450']
+1 to this. Most university courses are not externally accredited and therefore the uni can basically teach you whatever the hell they want to. They want to have as many students as possible so that they can earn more money and therefore they will put claims about how fantastic your opportunites are after this degree blah blah blah. It's all a load of crap. I certainly wouldn't reccomend going to uni and wasting everyones' money for a degree like art or music, but if you must, then don't expect to get a job at the end of it. Think of it as a nice experience which will allow you to harbour loads of nice memories to get you through 5 decades of burger-flipping
[/quote]
Hoy! I'm the depressing bastard around here.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1323890553' post='1468450']
Think of it as a nice experience which will allow you to harbour loads of nice memories to get you through 5 decades of burger-flipping
[/quote]

Edward, I'm not used to you speaking such sense, or in such a humour manner but I think you've hit the nail on the head there. By all means, I enjoy music in my spare time but it's a brave man who expects it to put a roof over his head and food on the table! Well, if you're expecting more than a cardboard box and a pot Noodle, anyway.

[jackers]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323890671' post='1468455']
but it's a brave man who expects it to put a roof over his head and food on the table! Well, if you're expecting more than a cardboard box and a pot Noodle, anyway.
[/quote]

But if everyone thought like that nothing would ever progress, and we certainly wouldn't have most of the bands that are considered 'all time greats' today would we.

Yes, I am well aware that taking that risk isn't for everyone, and you are more than welcome to voice you opinion. However, I don't think it is acceptable for you to tell someone they are wrong just because they don't think the same as you.

[peteb]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323887951' post='1468341']
I say this all the time, but studying music at University has to be one of the silliest ideas going these days. It's a lovely thing to do if you have no aspirations to own a house or get a job, but in the real world, a music degree is as much use to an employer as as a wad of used toilet paper. You might enjoy indulging your hobby for a couple of years but beyond university and the meagre pickings of the music world you'll not have much to show for the colossal debt you've accrued.
[/quote]
Sorry, but that’s b0ll0cks mate!

It is very true that the age of the session musician has diminished to the point of being almost irrelevant, but there is still a demand for music only now it is in entirely different ways

The one guy I’ve known who has become a millionaire from actually playing music was always a very good but uninspired player (no where near the best), but has made his money from composing music for computer games. Guess what – he’s got a music degree!

Another guy I know makes a decent living from composing background music, jingles, etc – again he has studied music

I don’t think that it matters too much when it comes to live work, thru having that background can’t hurt! However, the piece of paper you get from a music degree is in itself pretty worthless! To be honest, it is certainly true that you may struggle to make a good living just from playing life and all my mates who do play for a living have to supplement their income by teaching, freelancing for PA companies, etc

I think that it is a given that in taking a music degree you are committing yourself to actually making a living from music as it is not going to help you get a job in the same way as a History (or other non-vocational) degree will…..

To the OP – good luck, it ain’t an easy way of making a living!

[leftybassman392]

Jeez there's some hard bitten opinions on this thread!

Here's my perspective (that you can choose to consider or ignore as you wish).

I've loved music of all kinds for as long as I can remember. I got my first guitar at the age of 12 and have played, on and off, ever since.

When I was in my early 20's I had a big decision to make. I'd been offered a place at a music college, but because I was also really good at Maths and Sciences I did 'A' levels and got offered a place at Uni studying what ended up as Maths and Philosophy. After that I did a PGCE and spent the next 15 years teaching Maths. I don't regret having done that, but about 15 years ago I began to wonder if I'd made the right decision, so I quit a good job as head of I.T. at a fairly big school, spent a year studying at the (then called) Guitar Institute, and went out into the world as a musician. For some years life was very hard financially, but I've never regretted doing it. I never made a huge amount of money, and a lot of my bread & butter income came from being a private tutor. But I was happy getting paid for something I loved doing.

Moral: you have a huge decision to make; be sure that whatever you do decide, make sure it's for reasons that you'll be able to live with in 20 or 30 years' time. Despite what lots of people will have you believe (and while nobody wants to be in poverty), money isn't everything.

Edited December 14, 2011 by leftybassman392

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323890139' post='1468433']
I could be snide and make a comment about how your illiterate posts give me some idea of why you're working as a string plucker
[/quote]

You're right. I'm studying music. I've chosen to not promote myself and audition for gigs as i really want to get my chops together before im (hopefully) out gigging most days of the week. Im only just 21 and my student loan keeps me alive while i practice. I thought after just completing my exams i would have a quick look on basschat and you've ruined my nights practice of transcribing and latin grooves

[MusicLover20015]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1323890906' post='1468459']
Sorry, but that’s b0ll0cks mate!

It is very true that the age of the session musician has diminished to the point of being almost irrelevant, but there is still a demand for music only now it is in entirely different ways

The one guy I’ve known who has become a millionaire from actually playing music was always a very good but uninspired player (no where near the best), but has made his money from composing music for computer games. Guess what – he’s got a music degree!

Another guy I know makes a decent living from composing background music, jingles, etc – again he has studied music

I don’t think that it matters too much when it comes to live work, thru having that background can’t hurt! However, the piece of paper you get from a music degree is in itself pretty worthless! To be honest, it is certainly true that you may struggle to make a good living just from playing life and all my mates who do play for a living have to supplement their income by teaching, freelancing for PA companies, etc

I think that it is a given that in taking a music degree you are committing yourself to actually making a living from music as it is not going to help you get a job in the same way as a History (or other non-vocational) degree will…..

To the OP – good luck, it ain’t an easy way of making a living!
[/quote]

I do know its going to be tough etc etc. But i'll keep my options open and see whats going to be the best one after graduating
Thanks

[Chris2112]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1323890854' post='1468458']
But if everyone thought like that nothing would ever progress, and we certainly wouldn't have most of the bands that are considered 'all time greats' today would we.
[/quote]

Another point, which I couldn't be arsed to make before but I will now since you've danced around the matter, is that making it big in a band is definitely not connected to studying music. That seems to be more a case of right place, right time and a whole lot of luck. This seems to be another sweet nothing whispered in the ear of those who are considering studying music at a higher level. How many students are these places churning out year after year? To be fair, it almost seems as though the era when musical superstars played instruments is nearly over.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1323891150' post='1468464']
You're right. I'm studying music. I've chosen to not promote myself and audition for gigs as i really want to get my chops together before im (hopefully) out gigging most days of the week. Im only just 21 and my student loan keeps me alive while i practice. I thought after just completing my exams i would have a quick look on basschat and you've ruined my nights practice of transcribing and latin grooves
[/quote]

And I wish you all the best in this, you've made a brave decision and I hope it works out for you.

[jackers]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323891224' post='1468467']
Another point, which I couldn't be arsed to make before but I will now since you've danced around the matter, is that making it big in a band is definitely not connected to studying music. That seems to be more a case of right place, right time and a whole lot of luck. This seems to be another sweet nothing whispered in the ear of those who are considering studying music at a higher level. How many students are these places churning out year after year? To be fair, it almost seems as though the era when musical superstars played instruments is nearly over.
[/quote]

Yes, but that is not the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to say there was a connection between being famous and going to music college, I was trying to say that there is a connection between being famous and taking those chances.

Edited December 14, 2011 by jackers

[OliverBlackman]

to the op. A good idea may be to PM Jakesbass. He's a fantastic guy and is a professional working musician. i'm sure he will offer you plenty of things to think about and it will be far more useful than reading through this any longer.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1323891555' post='1468476']
to the op. A good idea may be to PM Jakesbass. He's a fantastic guy and is a professional working musician. i'm sure he will offer you plenty of things to think about and it will be far more useful than reading through this any longer.
[/quote]

I don't think he's called jakesbass any more.

[Mykesbass]

Chris2112, I've got to take issue with you here on two things: 1) the issue of student loans - they don't leave you burdened with debt, they are very sensibly worked out so that they are completely affordable and only repaid when you can afford to repay them. 2) Having been through 20 years of music industry experience then leaving and trying to get back in a few years later, yes, a music degree does count for a lot. I have fallen at the first hurdle in countless job applications where the first essential requirement is a "relevant" degree.

In my opinion there will always be jobs for well trained musicians, sure, they won't be as well paid and glamorous as they were in Anthony Jackson's day but the live music industry is thriving (unlike the recorded side) and will continue to need versatile, diligent, professional players for years to come.

[Linus27]

If I was in the OP shoes I would be looking at doing media and business degree's. All those skills are transferable and probably more usefull in the real world when getting a job. I would then study music in my own time and play in lots of bands to gain experience and then let life sort out the rest.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1323892095' post='1468487']
1) the issue of student loans - they don't leave you burdened with debt, they are very sensibly worked out so that they are completely affordable and only repaid when you can afford to repay them.
[/quote]
Of course they leave you burdened with debt. Instead of having £x to spend on things like buying a house or other trivial things, you have to spend that £x on repaying your loan. That's a debt burden in my book.

The only way it's not a burden is if you never earn enough to have to repay it, but who would want to go through their entire life like that?

The whole university game has changed and it's no longer the (financially) soft option it was when I went in the late 70s. Not only will it now cost about £50k to get a degree, there are so many people with degrees that their job-hunting value is severely diminished. We can argue all day about whether this is good or bad but it won't change the reality.

Chris2112 may have made some harsh comments but the real world is a harsh place. The problem is, when you're 20 or so it's almost impossible to imagine being 30, nevermind 40 or more. You have almost no real life experience (in the sense of being self-sufficient) and it's hard to envisage doing anything for the rest of your life except your current favourite hobby or interest and the thought of a lifetime of work fills you with dread.

One approach is to just follow your heart, wherever that may lead, but another is to really think seriously about career prospects. Yes, I know that's a turn-off right there but what you should ask yourself what you want to be doing at 30 or 40. What lifestyle do I want to be living and will my decisions today realistically give me a chance of achieving them?

Frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone at 20 really knows what they want to do for the rest of their lives. I know I didn't. Sure, at any given age, most people have a particular interest and once upon a time it was an easy and financially safe decision to choose a degree course based on that interest. But that's not the same as being tied to doing one thing for the rest of your life. The world has moved on and maximising life-choices is the key to real independence throughout life.

But therein lies the true nature of the generation gap. Youngsters with insufficient experience to plan the unimaginable decades ahead of them and old farts with all the wisdom that no one wants to listen to because they 'don't understand'. 'Twas ever thus.

[Monckyman]

Dear oh dear.
Chris.. every one of your posts mentions a "real world".
Silent is it, this real world?
Everybody was shitting themselves about the death of music 30 years ago,was this when you decided to count beans then?
Programmed music?
Drum machines?
Samplers?
Downloads??
May as well sell your soul to Corporation St for um... 35 years.
Get a nice house and a Skoda,join the golf club get a Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Old old sh*t.
If you are serious about a life in music then get serious about the music in your life and don`t listen to people who bottled it long ago.
MM

[SteveK]

[quote][font=comic sans ms,cursive][u][b]Session musicians are becoming a thing of the past ? [/b][/u][/font][/quote]
The honest answer?..Absolutely! It's increasingly becoming a producer's world, so I would not advise session work as a career path.
Having said that...

Chris2112 offers some [b]sensible[/b] advice...it's the kind kind of [b]sensible[/b] advice that, as a young, obsessed, single-minded wannabe... I (thankfully) ignored.
[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323888337' post='1468355']
It must be great having your head in the clouds.
[/quote][b]Not[/b] having your head in the clouds would go some way to explaining why music as a profession is/was not for you.

MusicLover20015, I would say, if you're at all swayed by the naysayers in this thread, then music is not for you...however, if you do have your head in the clouds, are obsessed and single-minded, then go for it.

Edited December 14, 2011 by SteveK

[jezzaboy]

To the OP. Yes there will be a place for Real musicians (whatever that means ). People will always want to hear music played by real musos rather than a singer with midi files. A decent player will always get work.

In the late 70`s and 80`s everyone thought that the synth would kill off the demand for musicians, just like in the 60`s the likes of radio 1 could only have so many records played in an hour as the MU though that their members would lose a lot of work if the radio played only records.

If you want go to do a uni course, go for it as anything that makes you feel more confident and makes you a better player can only do you good. Why not pm some of the pro working musos on here and ask them for advice, I`m sure that they will be happy to help.

Jez

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323887951' post='1468341']
The day of the session musician is long gone, especially for high profile players like Anthony Jackson etc etc. They're lucky to have proved themselves and can ride out their days based on their name playing jazz gigs as they see fit.

I say this all the time, but studying music at University has to be one of the silliest ideas going these days. It's a lovely thing to do if you have no aspirations to own a house or get a job, but in the real world, a music degree is as much use to an employer as as a wad of used toilet paper. You might enjoy indulging your hobby for a couple of years but beyond university and the meagre pickings of the music world you'll not have much to show for the colossal debt you've accrued.
[/quote]

That has to be one of the most ridiculous things that I've read on this site. Are you joking ? Only I've read a few of your postings on here over the years, and you've always come across as being quite intelligent.

The guy will have 3 years of experience of playing with some great teachers. He will come out (hopefully) with a degree, maybe he'll decide to go into teaching ?

His playing will have improved, his playing skills, ie reading will qualify him to get positions that most people on here could only dream about.

There's also the personal confidence instilled in him by playing under the scrutiny of his teachers.

People will always want to see and hear real musicians playing. I think people are nowadays having live bands at weddings rather than DJ's.

There's still a fair bit of session work out there too, for people with the relevant skills. I can't think of an album that I've bought in the last few years that hasn't listed session players in the credits. I don't mean the likes of Anthony Jackson or Will Lee either, I'm talking about real everyday session players some of whom frequent forums like this.

Studying at somewhere like ICMP (my old college), you also study business skills amongst other thhings to help you cope with the modern day music business.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Soliloquy

[benebass]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323889798' post='1468419']
I studied at uni for a year and left when I got a job with a 35 year contract.
[/quote]

What do you do Chris? Didn't think there were many jobs left that offer contracts like that...

To the OP - I think if you're not phased by the financial side of studying then I'd say go for it. Throughout history, it's the people who took a few risks that pushed things forward...

Good luck!

B.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='benebass' timestamp='1323900099' post='1468609']
Throughout history, it's the people who took a few risks that pushed things forward...
[/quote]

. . . but it's only ever a small proportion of the people taking those risks who ever prospered. History is written by the winners.

But if people want to follow their dream then that's great and I would always wish them the best of luck . . . but I'd also hope they were doing so with open eyes and after seriously considering all the pros and cons as well as all the other options that could give them more independence to change their lifestyle in 10, 20, 30 years time. Because it's very likely that their outlook will change over that time. That's all.

[redstriper]

What a thread - here's my advice for what it's worth...

Do whatever you want, if it feels right and it doesn't hurt anyone else.
You've got one life to live so forget about money and careers and all that 'real world' crap - join the really real world and set yourself free.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1323895599' post='1468551']
Of course they leave you burdened with debt. Instead of having £x to spend on things like buying a house or other trivial things, you have to spend that £x on repaying your loan. That's a debt burden in my book.

[/quote]

IMO, at the rates that the repayments have been set it cannot be regarded as a burden. Also, statistically, as a graduate you will end up earning significantly more throughout your working career which will easily compensate for this. Importantly, the loan does not have any effect on your credit record.

I was very much in the anti student loan lobby but looked a little closer at it after hearing the guy from Money Saving Expert shed some very interesting (no pun intended) light on the subject.