Do you think that "Real" Musicians era is going to end ?

[oldslapper]

The world of employment has changed somewhat over the years, fewer post graduates go into a profession that is directly related to their degree.
A degree, in an employers mind will generally mean that a prospective employee will have the ability to work at something over a long period of time and a "degree of" self motivation. And they are acouple of things that on a c.v. will look better than, "tried to be a rock star, but my self absorbed, I'm always right attitude and expensive bass, was unappreciated by the loathsome music industry"

There's more for you at the end of a music degree than you may think.
Music teacher, music therapist, theatre work, cruise ship work, publishing houses, music journalism, production, film/tv scores, sales, etc.
If you're prepared to study for 4 years, and study something you love, and have already demonstrated a level of dedication to by achieving your rock school grade 8, then go for it.
The other thing about music courses, is that they often have "industry people" as lecturers, or the like, coming in for master classes. It's a chance to be noticed, ask questions and rub shoulders with like minded people, who will sharpen you up and give you some direction.

Oh, by the way welcome to the forum. And a bit of advise, don't come back until you've finished your degree. Forums can suck the time you should be practicing and playing out of you.
All the best mate, go for it and don't listen to the naysayers.

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1323897211' post='1468568']
The honest answer?..Absolutely! It's increasingly becoming a producer's world, so I would not advise session work as a career path.
Having said that...

Chris2112 offers some [b]sensible[/b] advice...it's the kind kind of [b]sensible[/b] advice that, as a young, obsessed, single-minded wannabe... I (thankfully) ignored.
[b]Not[/b] having your head in the clouds would go some way to explaining why music as a profession is/was not for you.

MusicLover20015, I would say, if you're at all swayed by the naysayers in this thread, then music is not for you...however, if you do have your head in the clouds, are obsessed and single-minded, then go for it.
[/quote]

I like this

I think it was The Killers' guitarist who said that he moved to Las Vegas determined to get in or start a great band and succeed as a musician. Asked whether he had a back up plan he said no, and that having one dilutes your determination because you have a choice.

[throwoff]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323888337' post='1468355']
It must be great having your head in the clouds. But when you get to the real world, an employer will have no problem chucking your CV straight in the bin. There are still people going after proper degrees these days, after all.

Well, you might not get a career [i]per se[/i] but a music degree may get you a job. There will always be toilets in need of scrubbing and burgers in need of flipping, I suppose.
[/quote]

Hahahahhahahah hillarious.

I can honestly say I have a music degree from a less than prestigious establishment.

I now have quite a lucrative career.

[daz]

Nah, I've seen Data playing a violin in the future,

Also Mr spock played a vulcan lute.
See pic below for someones home made effort. All silver and space agey.

PS. Long live real music, never mind what Bleep & Booster say. No ones ever heard of them these days.

Edited December 15, 2011 by daz

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1323887951' post='1468341']

I say this all the time, but studying music at University has to be one of the silliest ideas going these days. It's a lovely thing to do if you have no aspirations to own a house or get a job, but in the real world, a music degree is as much use to an employer as as a wad of used toilet paper. You might enjoy indulging your hobby for a couple of years but beyond university and the meagre pickings of the music world you'll not have much to show for the colossal debt you've accrued.
[/quote]

i guess university didnt work out for you then?

[lowdown]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1323937303' post='1468770']
There's more for you at the end of a music degree than you may think.
Music teacher, music therapist, theatre work, cruise ship work, publishing houses, music journalism, production, film/tv scores, sales, etc.
If you're prepared to study for 4 years, and study something you love, and have already demonstrated a level of dedication to by achieving your rock school grade 8, then go for it.
The other thing about music courses, is that they often have "industry people" as lecturers, or the like, coming in for master classes.[i] It's a chance to be noticed, ask questions and rub shoulders with like minded people, who will sharpen you up and give you some direction.[/i]
All the best mate, go for it and don't listen to the naysayers.
[/quote]

All this for me...............
I left school at 16 to start a career in music, i am 54 now and still going strong [have a house, family, car and go on holidays]
Things in the business have changed, and always will. It's up to you to change with it and keep on top of it.
Being a full time Musician means you are usually in an environment of Musicians constantly, or people in the business,
which means opportunities tend to present themselves more.
Don't just settle for being an Electric Bassist alone, add other Musical skills to your arsenal.
The more work you put in, the chances are the rewards will be better.

Going to Uni or other Musical teaching establishments is a great chance to immerse yourself in the whole Musical environment,
and a chance to[b] make contacts [/b]with is a very important thing.


Garry

[Wil]

My brother got a BA Hons in Music at uni about 10 years ago. He now works in IT projects and doesn't play an instrument for fun, let alone work. His degree allowed him to get on a graduate scheme, whether that'd still be the case today, I don't know, but he seems to have done ok with it.

[JTUK]

OK.. I've skiimed this.

As far as working in the industry goes..sure, roll the dices and take your chances.
But it may depend how much you want/needf to earn and how many guys you know that make £30k easily from full-time music.

To put it into some sort of context, you would likely need a single payer per week, to bring in £350 or so..and then add a few more dates.

That is tough to do week-in week-out..

[Bilbo]

I think that there are several assumptions being made here about the relationship between education and the world of work. It is not actually necessary for all educational experiences to be targeted at specific careers (e.g. law degree = lawyer, chemistry degree = chemist etc). That is a myth created by the loadsamoney generation. Most humanities degrees are not going to result in jobs that are ‘degree related’. How many art students become artists? How many archaeology students become archaeologists? How many psychology students become psychologists? What a degree does is evidences your ability to learn, to stay focussed, to retain facts, to prepare written work, to work in a team, to use IT etc etc.

Then we have the relationship between training and the employment market. One year not that long ago, the university system trained about 2,000 Occupation Therapists. At the end of that year, the NHS recruited 4. Universities are businesses and they will train you in whatever you are willing to pay for, even if there is no chance of a job in that field after you qualify. A couple of days ago, there was a guy on TV from Northern Ireland who said that, of the 35 Engineering Graduates he qualified with, 34 are having to emigrate to get work. A degree is only one factor and is a guarantee of nothing. Music is no different to many other course that may appear more career/proper job focussed.

An additional factor to consider is the relationship between employers desire to get tthe eh job done more 'efficiently' and employees worth in financial terms. Many of the careers we all use to think of as professions (in the broadest sense) have been dumbed down over the last 30 years specifically so the work that used to be done by trained people can now be done by unqualified (read: cheaper) staff. Teachers replaced by teaching assistants, Social Workers by social work assistants, Probation Officers by Probation Service Officers (i.e. with no Probation qualification), Psychologists replaced by Psychology Assistants, Police Officer and PCSOs, Prison Officers and Operation Support Grades (OSGs) and so on. Simple theory. Pay people less to do the same thing. In Probation, at the moment, it is almost impossible to get a job as a (qualified) Probation Officer because all Probation Trusts are making their (expensive) POs redundant and replacing them with (unqualified and cheaper) Probation Service Officers i.e. those of us who invested time and effort in becoming qualified are being betrayed by the very system that forced us to get the qualification in the first place. This is an increasingly common experience in the world of work so be careful how you relate to it as it will hold no loyalty to you.

As part of my job, I regularly see the Jobcentre Plus’ Vacancies data and the areas of work that are always looking for people are service industries (hotels etc), tele sales and lower grades of nursing i.e. cheap, unskilled labour. If you want a job as an architect, there are loads of you looking and no jobs in that field. That applies to most careers where qualifications are a factor. There are people with degrees working at my local tip, FFS.

To the OP. Go to uni, get everything you can out of it, make yourself the best and most employable musician you can and let the world of work sort itself out when the time comes. Whatever else happens, you will always play and, ‘proper job’ or not, that may make the difference between having that house/car and not. Good luck.

[seashell]

Brilliant post, Bilbo.

[originalfunkbrother]

To the OP, best of luck in whatever decision you make. Let it be yours and not based on anyone else's experience. You are the one who's gonna look back in retrospect....make sure you look back and appreciate whatever it is you've chosen.

[louisthebass]

To the OP:
Just to add to all the positive responses to your initial post, if you've got the hunger and drive to be a full time musician then go for it. It is possible to go to school / uni, get a qualification & come out of it the other side still doing what you want to do.

A case in point is a pro bass player who a couple of us on here have had lessons with - he got qualifications from Berklee in Boston & B.I.T, in Los Angeles in the late 80's / early 90's.

Wish you all the best, & keep us all updated

[Bilbo]

One of the lessons I have got from watching people is an understanding of the relationship between income and expectations. I know people who earn less than half I do who are just as happy with their lot as I am and get to play music all of the time. Their house is not so big etc but how much that really matters is a matter for the individual. Get a handle on what does matter to you and don't fret about the fact that you have only one tv not 3 or 4 and then cut your cloth. You can certainly earn as much from music as you could as, say, a Kwik Fit Fitter or a shop worker.

[JellyKnees]

[b] [size=4]Do you think that "Real" Musicians era is going to end ?[/size][/b]

[size=4]Not when the oil runs out...[/size]

[size=4]Joking aside, I'm in two minds about this...I love watching great musicians play, but I think ultimately it's the ideas that count more than the execution. Watching a bunch of music school clones playing covers as an excuse to showing off their chops is pretty dull. I'd rather see a bunch of less skilled players do something interesting and original. And Jo public doesn't care a jot whether the music on his latest download was played or programmed. [/size]

[size=4]But I'm not a 'professional bass player', so what do i know.... [/size]

[BottomE]

Be interesting to hear what [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/21668-musiclover20015/"]MusicLover20015[/url] thinks about these comments.

[Shockwave]

My opinion on the matter is that you dont NEED a degree to do what you want to do (Professional musician). But it's likely you will NEED to get a degree in a subject for your "backup" plan if you want to have a career to help pay the bills.

I did a fairly high level qualification in Music Tech and got me nothing but 2 years of supermarket work and frustration and this was BEFORE the financial crisis. I gave it up and I did my degree in ICT, I had a job 3 months after coming out of uni. I still play in bands and my current band may have something worldwide in the works (Though i cant say what exactly).

I think with self study and discipline at home you can become a professional musician and you shouldnt have to go to uni to make yourself have that discipline. Look at all of the classic/modern music bands out there right now, not many boast of a music degree (Apart from Dream theater and a few other bands for "Musicians").

When degrees were cheaper and you didnt mind losing 3 years of your life, I would have said go for it you never know. But now, I dont think its worth the risk to spend the large amount of money needed for a degree with such low job prospects.

By all means get bass lessons, learn with books how to sequence and setup a nice recording rig. Whilst doing a degree for your backup plan. Whilst your doing that degree, visit the music department at your uni and make friends and contacts!

I am now 26 years old, because of my mistake taking a music course for 2 years, I have a job that a fresh faced 21 year old would usually have. However I am grateful for having it.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1323937275' post='1468769']
IMO, at the rates that the repayments have been set it cannot be regarded as a burden. Also, statistically, as a graduate you will end up earning significantly more throughout your working career which will easily compensate for this. Importantly, the loan does not have any effect on your credit record.
[/quote]
While I'd certainly agree that student loans are 'a good deal' as far as borrowing money is concerned, it's still borrowing money and it has to be repaid.

The point about graduates earning more may be true and I've read an average figure of £100k over a working life, but that doesn't look so good when you have to repay a £50k debt + interest out of taxed income. Of course, that's not a reason not to go to uni, just part of being realistic and making such decisions with open eyes.

As for student loans not affecting credit records, loans themselves never do. It's defaulting on loans that affacts credit records. Indeed, a track record of many loans all correctly managed and paid off will enhance a credit record because that's precisely the sort of person banks want to lend to and such a person will have a better credit record than someone who has never been in debt because they'd be an unknown quantity.

[TimR]

I think as you've said your PRIMARY instrument will be Bass. I'll suggest that you'll also have to be able to play or will at least have to learn piano as your secondary instrument.

I played with a drummer who was in his second year of a music degree with percussion as his primary instrument. Awsome drummer, his second instrument was piano and I've never heard anyone play piano like it. I would say he was a better pianist than drummer!

So wen you graduate you should be able to do all that sequencing stuff that you're worried about becoming the norm and add your own live bass parts

As an aside and not really that relevant. There will always be a call for 'real' musicians. I'm fairly sure that there is (there certainly used to be) an agreement with the MU that anyone miming on a TV show must be a memeber of the Union. Even those pretty girls that look like models you see miming to tunes you know don't have real musicians playing on them, are registered with the musician's union. I may be wrong, of course, it may have changed. My friend joined the union as a tuba player and has done lots of shows despite not being able to play tuba - I kid you not!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1323942951' post='1468859']
I think that there are several assumptions being made here about the relationship between education and the world of work. It is not actually necessary for all educational experiences to be targeted at specific careers (e.g. law degree = lawyer, chemistry degree = chemist etc). That is a myth created by the loadsamoney generation.
[/quote]

That is correct to some extent but the principle can only be stretched so far - although I managed to stretch a biology degree to a career in microelectronics. But my impression is that things are rather more specialised today than they were in the 80s, possibly because so many more people have degrees today so that employers have less need to look beyond the discipline they're recruiting into.

[Soliloquy]

One thing to add to this. There are guys out there who make a living and tour extensively around the globe playing just bass...on it's own !
Steve Lawson, Michael Manring and Yves Carbonne to name just three of them. I've met Steve a few times and remember him telling me that he's always done OK, he's never had to take a real job or anything.

They don't live in mansions or drive flash cars. But they make a good living playing solo bass.

My point is, if they can do it playing solo bass, then given the correct skills, drive and determination it's quite possible to make a living doing what you love best.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1323913351' post='1468708']
Do whatever you want, if it feels right and it doesn't hurt anyone else.
You've got one life to live so forget about money and careers and all that 'real world' crap - join the really real world and set yourself free.
[/quote]

I entirely agree with the sentiment but I wouldn't dismiss the 'real world crap' so quickly. It's a lot easier to 'set yourself free' and 'do whatever you want' if you can make good money and it needn't mean selling your soul for a lifetime behind a desk. The trick is to use 'the system' to achieve what you want, not just drop out and be severely limited in what you're able to do.

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1323952630' post='1469050']
I think as you've said your PRIMARY instrument will be Bass. I'll suggest that you'll also have to be able to play or will at least have to learn piano as your secondary instrument.

I played with a drummer who was in his second year of a music degree with percussion as his primary instrument. Awsome drummer, his second instrument was piano and I've never heard anyone play piano like it. I would say he was a better pianist than drummer!

So wen you graduate you should be able to do all that sequencing stuff that you're worried about becoming the norm and add your own live bass parts

As an aside and not really that relevant. There will always be a call for 'real' musicians. I'm fairly sure that there is (there certainly used to be) an agreement with the MU that anyone miming on a TV show must be a memeber of the Union. Even those pretty girls that look like models you see miming to tunes you know don't have real musicians playing on them, are registered with the musician's union. I may be wrong, of course, it may have changed. My friend joined the union as a tuba player and has done lots of shows despite not being able to play tuba - I kid you not!
[/quote]

I think most colleges, ICMP etc. teach keyboard as a 2nd instrument.

They also teach music technology, you get to learn Logic and I think ProTools.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1323938219' post='1468782']
I think it was The Killers' guitarist who said that he moved to Las Vegas determined to get in or start a great band and succeed as a musician. Asked whether he had a back up plan he said no, and that having one dilutes your determination because you have a choice.
[/quote]

A nice story but an example of history being written by the winners. What about all those musicians who did the same thing, with the same determination, with no backup plan, and sunk without trace?

[steve-bbb]

i think that as corny and cheesy ben elton's 'we will rock you' is, it has quite a ring of accurate intuition about it - there will always be a mass market for overproduced/undertalented pap whilst at the same time there will be a discerning group who prefer the 'real thing' - as long as both continue along simultaneously that will be fine - i would be extremley concerned if either one were to disappear!

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1323953799' post='1469080']
A nice story but an example of history being written by the winners. What about all those musicians who did the same thing, with the same determination, with no backup plan, and sunk without trace?
[/quote]

you usually see them on those documentaries about council workers who have to clean up "remains" from houses and flats...