Sparky Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Hi All, Played last night at a small-medium 'toilet circuit' sized venue ie. stage large enough to rock, but not to swing a cat. Gig was alright, but had some technical issues with the onstage bass sound. When setting up & before soundchecking a number, i got my rig sounding pretty sweet with the room: P-Bass. Hartke HA3500 - EQ Off. Tube pre at one, solid state pre at -3. Tiny bit of compression. Low pass 0, High pass +3. Two 2x10 cabs (one harke, one trace) positioned in the usual spot - next to drummer, facing forward. Thing is, when we started to play, even though there was no bass in any of their monitors, the drummer and guitarist both said that all they could hear was a bassy boom/rumble with no clarity to any of the notes. In the end, i had to turn the EQ on and remove All of the low frequencies leaving the mids and highs which resulted in a seriously nasty onstage bass sound. Yeh, maybe good for the drummer & guitarist, but rubbish for me! I even twisted the top 2x10 cab round slightly to face a bit more across the stage towards the other chaps - surely that aint cricket?!!! I can understand why this was happening -bass frequencies were traveling everywhere including sideways towards my bandmates and all the mids and highs were travelling forward, but I was just wondering what other people do to cope with this? Cheers, Sparky. Slightly Off, but still quite On topic, what's the difference in the popular P-Bass 'dull thud' that i hear people refer to, and the P-Bass 'muddy bass boom' that I seem to be acheiving? also, in my live situation, there doesn't seem to be any of the 'cutting through' that you other lucky so & so's seem to be getting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Sounds like your low frequencies were coupling with the stage. There are a few threads on this and the answer is usually Gramma pad. If you do a search on Gramma you should find some. Were the drums mike'd and the bass DI'd? Sometimes the kick and the bass double up to boom and it always sounds like the bass, usually when the kick is too high in the mix but it may be acoustic. As for cutting through - try boosting the mids on your EQ. Depends a lot on the strings as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 (edited) Lift the cab up by a couple of feet. That will eliminate boom frequencies in the midbass without killing the low end. Electronically a parametric EQ is best, as it can notch out the boom without killing the low end. Also be very cognizant of cab distance from the rear wall, adjusting that can also notch out boom frequencies. Pads are of very limited value, all they can do is filter vibration of the cabinet walls, and if your cab walls are vibrating you've got a whole 'nuther set of issues. Edited March 29, 2008 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybassplayer Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 We mainly play pubs and the "onstage" sound is reasonable. We occasionally play on a big stage and the sound is usually good but when we seem to play on a relatively small stage with the amps and drums right back against the wall that's when we seem to bet lots of bass rumble with me, the drummer and keyboard player looking at each wondering who is making the noise. We usually find that the other three members who stand further forward don't hear this noise so perhaps it is connected to proximity to the back wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='166089' date='Mar 29 2008, 09:53 PM']Also be very cognizant of cab distance from the rear wall, adjusting that can also notch out boom frequencies.[/quote] See the wiki for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Thank you all. Some very useful suggestions. The drums Were mic'd and the bass Was D.I'd. The kick drum sounded big (and nice) on it's own, but I suppose it's very possible that frequencies were 'coupling'. Both my rig, the drummer and the drummer's monitor were hard up against the back wall - next time I'll try moving my rig slightly. Also, will try raising it up on crates - I used to do this when I was just using one 4x10, but since the two 2x10's stack up a little taller I've not bothered - I'll try it though. I shall look up grammar pads and also the meaning of 'Parametric' EQ Oh, and after payday tomorrow, I'll be investing in a set of DR's for my P. It's currently strung with the rounds that came with the bass - not sure how long they'd been on there before I bought it but I'm sure a change won't go amiss. I've also got a set of flats that Beedster kindly gave me to try out. We'll see how that affect things re. the pursuit of a 'cutting dull thud' Thanks again chaps. Sparky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 The advice given on the wiki is very interesting and useful, if not entirely practical I've learnt something new anyway and will be mindful of my cab positioning next time the problem occurs. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Was it you, or was it the PA, I Bet the PA was too loud and that was the route of the problems. A bad FOH engineer especially in rock band tends to concentrate on a good kick sound (lots of low end thump and a click} at the expense of every thing else even vocals. To get this sound you need lots of low end, in a small room the bass frequencies hit the far wall and come back to the stage making things boom. Also the Mic’s pick up the bass cab same result. In short it might not be your fault. Why do people think the need to put every thing through a PA system in a small venue unless it is packed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 +1 - thats why I asked if the drums were mike'd up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 IMHO you're probably too loud, gigs on the toilet circuit are always too loud. When everything is Mic'd you don't need to turn up loud to be heard, your stage volume/mix is unlikely to effect the FOH mix. so turn down, turn the guitars down, do you really need kit coming through the monitors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 If the sound was ok to start off with and you did not turn the volume up, be honest did you, then the my moneys on the PA As gilmour says when working with a PA let it do the work, play at a sensible volume. In small venue it is very easy for backline to over power the main PA. Also bass frequency waves are quite long so standing in front of a speaker is not always a good place to judge volume. IMHO, unless the there is a real need, or the stage is large and you have great foldback there is no need to put any thing other then vocals though the monitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 [quote name='ironside1966' post='166607' date='Mar 30 2008, 10:42 PM']IMHO, unless the there is a real need, or the stage is large and you have great foldback there is no need to put any thing other then vocals though the monitors.[/quote] +1 - unless you plsy with one of the keyboard players I often gig with - who deosn't even own an amp! but can afford a new car. grrr! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) OK ok, you got me - I did turn up when we started soundchecking a number - but not to be heard by anyone else (i'm fully aware that the engineer controls what the crowd hear), just so that I could hear myself. I know what you mean about the often excessive and unnecessary volume onstage (& FOH) in these types of venues (200-300 capcity) - I have earplugs to sheild me from the familiar white noise blasting from the monitors; when all three vocalists + guitarist are going some it sounds like hell boiling over (well, what i'd imagine hell boiling over to sound like ) and I regularly struggle to hear myself. Thing is, at the gig on friday, the monitor sound was actually ok - the vocals sounded good and there was just enough guitar in my monitor to keep me happy - it literally was Just the bass (frequencies) - The drums weren't coming through the monitors at the front (drummer just asks for a small bit of kick in his) - just vocals and a guitar. In this case, as the onstage volume IMO wasn't excessive (and I'm very conscious of it when it is) I rekon the suggestions about amp positioning and frequency coupling are probably the most likely suspects. Thanks for all your input. Sparky. Edited March 31, 2008 by Sparky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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