Advice on good guitar sound

[Dropzone]

I am struggling to get a good guitar sound by D I ing. Get a fine sound when micing an amp but was hoping to just take a direct feed. Anyone got any advice?

Ta

Mike

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1323952412' post='1469041']
I am struggling to get a good guitar sound by D I ing. Get a fine sound when micing an amp but was hoping to just take a direct feed. Anyone got any advice?

Ta

Mike
[/quote]

Are you running any kind of speaker simulation or anything like that? If not, that's your first priority...

[crez5150]

Clean or distorted?

[SebCarr]

Oh man, is this ever a big and tricky subject. What's your current setup? Guitat/interface/software/plug-ins/settings? And what kind of tones are you looking for?

[Dropzone]

Looking for a Rammstein type distorted sound. Have got line 6 X3 and spider 4 as well as a boss GT6. Can get a great recording tone when having a mic in front o fhte amp but none of the outputs including DI and headphones give a decent tone?

Have yet to look at Bass or clean guitar as need to get the metal guitar sound sorted first ;-)

[jackers]

What you need is some amp modelling VSTs (or equivalent for the recording program you use). I'm still new at all the recording stuff, so I can't really recommend any yet, but it would be worth looking into. Logic has some decent ones built in from what I remember.

[SebCarr]

Right, what software are you recording into?

Let's take this from start to finish in the signal chain.

First, the guitar: I've fold that old strings suck for any kind of DI recording. It just sounds like mud. I've also had a lot more success using a strat for heavy sounds over my Les Pauls. Counterintuitive, but works for me. My point is to experiment here and see what sounds good.

Next, the DI. Does your Line6 have speaker simulation as an option? If it does, play with that. If not, you have two options: Get a clean signal into the computer, and use and amp sim in there, or get a distorted signal into the computer and add speaker simulation. I'll come back to that.

If you go the clean signal + amp sim route, there are a lot of options. There are a lot of amp sim VSTs out there. Some people swear by some that others hate. You should download some demos and give them a shot, such as:

Logic/Garagband's built in sims
Digidesign Eleven (for ProTools)
Metal Amp Room
Studio Devil
Amplitube
Peavey ReValver
NI Guitar Rig

There are SO many now, so you'll have to see what works for you. I've often had much more luck by blending two sims to get the tone I want, either by duplicating the track, or by doubletracking. But the thing you'll soon figure out is that, while in the real world you can plug and old guitar into a big amp and get big tone with no fuss, in the virtual world you have to tweak and tweak and tweak some more to get something really nice. Play with the presets to get in the ball park, but expect them to be just a starting point to build upon.

Now, for speaker simulation, the amp sims usually have resonable options included. But you can also use an impulse response from a guitar amp/speaker/microphone to replicate the effect of a speaker cabinet. In Logic the convolution reverb plugin, Space Designer, is perfect for loading these impulses. Sometimes I use an amp sim's speaker simulation, sometimes I use an impulse, sometimes I use both.

Finally - filters. A lot of the sims (and a lot of guitar amps) put out a lot of really brash, fizzy overtones in the high frequency spectrum. This isn't nice. Try a low pass filter at the end of the signal chain to clean this up, and a corresponding high pass at ~80Hz (but use your ears!) to clear up the mud the heavy guitars put out. That space is for the bass (and kick) to live in!

Oh, and if you've DI'd the signal will be very dry. A little room verb (and I mean a little) may bring it back to life and help it all gel.

But most importantly - experiment, try stuff out, double and triple and quad track, and use your ears. You may not get exactly the tone you wanted, but you may get something awesome and original.

[mike257]

The X3 is designed to simulate the amp, cab and mic setup for recording purposes, so there should be some decent tones to be had directly from that. I'd dig in to the settings, and maybe look at presets that people have uploaded to t'interweb, see if you can find something close to what you're after and tweak from there.

What are you using between the pod and your computer - what kind of interface? I know the POD X3 supports direct recording via USB, or you can download the POD Farm plug-in and use it as an effect at mixdown. If you want to record direct, I'd skip the Spider (and probably the Boss for now) and experiment with the amp and cabinet models in the X3 to get the sound you're after.

Good luck!!

EDIT: Seb's awesome post had appeared while I was typing this - he makes a great suggestion about combining sounds using two signal paths/two different amp emulations. The X3 has this in the box too so you can try it out with the gear you've already got. Some of this digital modelling stuff is really in depth, if you're just hitting presets you won't even slightly scratch the surface of what it can achieve.

Edited December 15, 2011 by mike257

[Dropzone]

Thanks for the assistance. Am going into the computer via an Alesis USB 16 multimix. I think i will just use the miced amp to get started and then look deeper into this once I have a decent signal for everything else as this could eat up a lot of time with no significant benefit and then just demotivate me ;-)

[Mog]

The X3 should be enough on its own if its set up correctly. Try the Diezel and Mesa sims through the 1996 and 68 Marshall 4x12's using dual tone.

[51m0n]

DIing you will need an amp sim.

Do not be too attached to the top top end (ie over 3KHz) it isnt as important as most people think. Dont worry about the very lowest los anything bleow about 100Hz and you arein bass guitar territory, get out!

Multi track rhythm guitars, at least two tracks per side. Pan the guitars 100% L and R, and 90% L & R, keep them right away form the vocal.

More overdubs = less distortion set per track, you build the intensity with the number of tracks, start with too much and it will tend to degrade to fizzy nonsense.

[mike257]

If you're using the X3 as your preamp, it may simplify things to just go straight in via its onboard USB interface rather than plugging through the Alesis - it would take the X3's D/A converters, the Alesis A/D converters, and a couple of extra gain stages out of your signal path.

A massive plus one to Simon's advice on reducing the gain to layer tracks up. A slightly less gainy sound will give much more definition to the parts and thicken up nicely with layering. He's an expert, pay far more attention to him than you do to anything I say!

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1323958430' post='1469173']
Thanks for the assistance. Am going into the computer via an Alesis USB 16 multimix. I think i will just use the miced amp to get started and then look deeper into this once I have a decent signal for everything else as this could eat up a lot of time with no significant benefit and then just demotivate me ;-)
[/quote]

If you're mic-ing anyway, it's very little extra effort to simultaneously record a DI signal from the guitar which you can mess around with later to thicken the overall guitar mix.

[51m0n]

Other interesting things to t try:-

1) Mic the guitar acoustically close to the picking hand - great for a send to reverbs etc, can also add some clarity to the attack of every note. Need a fairly clean player to get the best out of this

2) DI + amp as above, but use the DI clean opposite the amp sound, or as an fx send

3) Detune guitars between takes - only by about 5 to 10 cents up or down and keep it in tune with itself, but can add a nice natural shimmer, or just help fatten everything up

4) parallel compression on heavy heavy guitars to get them really banging

5) DI only fo that super clean sould disco sound, A touch of nice compression and you are done

6) If you are going to mic, and you want BIG guitars, be prepared to bring some noise, you need to get the cab playing a part in the sound, pick the best sounding cone, and mic it with a decent dynamic, and then back off a few feet and put up a LDC, mix to taste.

7) Whenever relying on, multiple sources for a signal (mics & or DI's get the phase right or lose something...

Edited December 15, 2011 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

Apologies for my rampant typing dyslexia today gents, all fingers and thumbs for some reason (Xmas lunch at work having nothing to do with it, honest)....

[Dropzone]

You lost me a little on items 4 and 7 ;-)

Not sure what compression to use or how to use it I think I am going to focus on getting a relatively good sound first and then focus on the smaller things. I am currently using Reason (or is it reaper, the free one) but may be able to get hold of a full version of ableton. Not sure what has a compressor or how good it is?

Simon, I don't suppose you ever head over to Chichester way at all?

Ta

Mike

[51m0n]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1323965800' post='1469318']
You lost me a little on items 4 and 7 ;-)

Not sure what compression to use or how to use it I think I am going to focus on getting a relatively good sound first and then focus on the smaller things. I am currently using Reason (or is it reaper, the free one) but may be able to get hold of a full version of ableton. Not sure what has a compressor or how good it is?

Simon, I don't suppose you ever head over to Chichester way at all?

Ta

Mike
[/quote]

If you dont know compression, dont worry about parallel compression!

A great source sound trumps any and all processing after the fact.

If you record a single sound with two devices that are seperated in some way (ie, distance between them, or electronic path or whatever) they are likely to be out of phase. Thats where the peak of the wave in one of the outputs is not lining up with the peak of the wav in the other output. Its not just a time alignment thing.

Reaper (its about $65 so not free, but the best value for money) is excellent, has everything you need to get exceptional results, dont waste your money on another tool, learn about how to use the one you've got, its capable of completely professional results.

I do on occasion head out Chichester way...

[SebCarr]

In very simple terms a compressor is a dynamic volume control. When your signal goes above a certain level (the threshold) the compressor reduces the gain according to the ratio (higher ratio means more gain reduction). The attack control determines how quickly the compressor turns the signal down, and the release control determines how quickly it turns it back up again once the signal has dropped below the threshold.

Compressors usually have a meter that shows how much gain reduction you're getting.

People always seem to have their stock settings for attack, release, ratio, how many dB of compression they aim for. By all means, use google and find some for a starting point - but use your ears too, and go with what sounds good to you.

Parallel compression is a technique where you have two tracks of the same thing: one is left uncompressed, or with very little compression; the other is compressed heavily. The starting point is to have the compressed track very low in the mix, and bring it up slowly - listening to what it does to your sound. When it sounds good, it is good.

Phase: If you take two identical signals, and flip one 180 degrees out of phase, they will sum to complete silence. When you're blending two microphones on the same source, the sound from the speaker will reach them at different times. You need to experiment with positioning; a good way is to setup a close mic, and send the sound live to your headphones. Have someone else play some guitar for you. Walk around with a second mic, also being sent to your headphones. At some points in the room the mix in your 'phones will sound BAD. At some points it'll sound good. Just experiment.

[Dropzone]

Yep, that makes some sense. Sounds like a lot of trial and error, which is not a bad thing. Got a loom and a load of leads coming in the next couple of days so I can connect things up. Simon, I am in Boxgrove, literally just off the A27, let me know if you are over this way as someone who knows what they are doing could jump start me to somewhere much better than I currently am ;-)

Having monster trouble with the electronic drum kit as well. I thought that would have been easy but it just subs out and sounds crap!!!!

[Rimskidog]

I feel like I should join in on this thread but as I've just come out of a 3 days session I suspect I won't make much sense so I'll keep it simple: 1. emulations (whether vst or line 6 types) do not make for huge guitars;
2. I'd rarely cut 3k and up but will usually low pass somewhere from 5-7k
3. go read Slippermans distorted guitars from hell here: http://badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

Edited December 15, 2011 by Rimskidog

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1323955531' post='1469119']
Looking for a Rammstein type distorted sound. Have got line 6 X3 and spider 4 as well as a boss GT6. Can get a great recording tone when having a mic in front o fhte amp but none of the outputs including DI and headphones give a decent tone?

Have yet to look at Bass or clean guitar as need to get the metal guitar sound sorted first ;-)
[/quote]
Which outputs are you using on the X3?

You need the Studio setting so it uses the amp models, and some good patches. I use the X3 direct for everything and get (IMO) fabulous tones.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1323988810' post='1469681']
I feel like I should join in on this thread but as I've just come out of a 3 days session I suspect I won't make much sense so I'll keep it simple: 1. emulations (whether vst or line 6 types) do not make for huge guitars;
2. I'd rarely cut 3k and up but will usually low pass somewhere from 5-7k
3. go read Slippermans distorted guitars from hell here: [url="http://badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html"]http://badmuckingfas...slipperman.html[/url]
[/quote]

1. Agreed. They can get close, but they never sound as good as the real thing IME.

2. I've found rolling off a cheaper dynamic as low as 3KHz gently to often really help, I would also agree that a better mic can get away with a lot more of the info in that 3-7KHz range (love ribbons on distorrted guitar, where I find myself pushing things in that range as often as not). Above that and its all fizzy and horrid!

3. Huge +1, Slipperman really knows his beans, and everything he says about getting the cab to really start working is so true. An analogy would be trying to get a rock snare sound out of a funky drummer. Rock snare requires a lot of input energy (ie whack it dont tickle it) or it just never sounds right IME. Most funky drummers just dont get neanderthal enough with the kit to produce that sound very well. Same with rock guitar, drive the rig hard, (which doesn tmean super distorted just moving a lot of air) and it will sound far more RAWK than if you try and record it quietly.

Last thing, as ever mic position is ultra important, a couple of inches can totally change the sound, experiment, take your time and use your ears (on playback if necessary).

[cheddatom]

As 5imon knows i've been struggling with guitar sounds recently, so this is a very useful thread. Ta for all the tips!

[SebCarr]

Slipperman does know his stuff BUT it's definitely geared for those who can dime a 4x12 in a studio. For home recording it's really not practical (having been there, done that, and upset the neighbours! ). But great sounds can be had at lower volumes. I remember reading that some of the ultra-crunchy tones on Weezer's blue album (nothing like Rammstein, but great tones nonetheless) were recorded at bedroom volumes. They tried playing louder but couldn't get the tone! This was one of the early Mesa combos from memory, possibly a Mk1 but don't quote me on that!

[Dropzone]

Many thanks for the shout about the Studio setting. Hadn't thought of that. Am at xmas work do tonight but will be spending most of the weekend tweaking and experimenting.