Strange question time. Stage volume vs Speaker config.

[Mog]

'sup lads and lassies? Quick question. I've used an Ampeg 8x10 (US) for a couple of recent gigs but have noticed that once I move about 3ft away from the rig the (audible on-stage) volume drops significantly. If I cross to the opposite side of the stage I get almost nothing at all from the backline. This is never a problem when I run smaller rigs eg. 4x10 or 2x10, depending on the venue. I'm presuming this has something to do with dispersion/acoustics etc.
So anyways, I wondering if I use something like a 2x15/4x15/4x10+1x18 etc. for the larger venues would I get the same result, ie. would the sound from the backline drop as quickly?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

These symptoms can usually be traced to the venue, being caused by room boundary interactions, and changing the speakers would have no effect. All speakers lose volume with respect to distance via the same equation.

[gjones]

Turn up or stay within 3 feet of your amp.

[Mog]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1323978170' post='1469518']
These symptoms can usually be traced to the venue, being caused by room boundary interactions, and changing the speakers would have no effect. All speakers lose volume with respect to distance via the same equation.
[/quote]

Cheers Bill, so its a case of hoping the monitors are ok then.

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1323978583' post='1469528']
Turn up or stay within 3 feet of your amp.
[/quote]
Sadly I'm neither of those guys gjones. I've a fairly ok dynamic going with the guitarist/singer who's usually centre stage. The volume settings are based on his needs also. As he's usually tied to the mic its up to me to play stage gimp, hence the movement.

[alexclaber]

Pushing your cab right back towards the rear and side walls usually helps with the boundary reflection problems which Bill mentioned.

[ficelles]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1323978170' post='1469518']
These symptoms can usually be traced to the venue, being caused by room boundary interactions, and changing the speakers would have no effect. All speakers lose volume with respect to distance via the same equation.
[/quote]

6db per doubling of distance from a point source... is an 8 x 10 a point source or a line source? Anyway room acoustics have a huge effect on that very general rule.

ficelles

[4 Strings]

Sounds like your singer never hears what you play. Turning up might be a revelation for him!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='ficelles' timestamp='1323991498' post='1469705']
. is an 8 x 10 a point source or a line source?
[/quote]It's both, as are all speakers, depending on frequency and how far away the listening position is. Practically speaking all electric bass cabs should be considered point sources, save maybe a pair of 810s stacked vertically.

[JohnFitzgerald]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1324006316' post='1469756']
It's both, as are all speakers, depending on frequency and how far away the listening position is. Practically speaking all electric bass cabs should be considered point sources, save maybe a pair of 810s stacked vertically.
[/quote]

A pair of 8 x 10s stacked vertically....

Now there's a thought to dwell on.

Provided you don't have to move it.

[JTUK]

Sounds like you are playing bigger stages that you rig can cover and you need side fills...

[4 Strings]

Surely if you can't hear yourself no-one else on stage can hear you either.

I have the opposite problem, as bass has more omni-directional frequencies (Bill?) it seems everyone can hear me but I never get much of the guitarist from the other side of the drummer nor the keys next to me but with his speaker the opposite side of him. Or I'm playing too loud (is this possible?).

Perhaps use the "2x15/4x15/4x10+1x18 etc" as an extension on the other side of the stage.

Or play louder.

Edited December 16, 2011 by 4 Strings

[JTUK]

You need to know what kit works on what sized stages. Of course, you can always turn down but I use two rigs and find one for small and compact gigs and one for large is fine atm.
I am thinking about adding a 610, but that depends how much mileage I'll get out of it considering I'll have to arrange different transport so cost effective..?? esp as my other rig can handle
a powerful 100x30 stage with the other backline we use.
Gtr will run AC30 and ext cab or equiv alternative and keys run stereo 300w per side. We can position a key cab either side if we need to.
Drums are loud and powerful and I'll need a 550w amp.
Stage sound is fine and full..and the sound check is useless if we can't arrange things to hear everything. It is a very odd and rare set-up when we can't hear interaction between the
players and it would majorly p*** us off. The balance is between hearing ourselves and being loud enough to enjoy it but at NO TIME am I not able to hear key players ...!!!!

[chris_b]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I don't move around but I'm always been heard by the other band members. If a 410 is ok and an 810 isn't, I'd blame the 810 cab. Maybe you need to eq differently for the 810?[/font][/color][/size]

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1324024201' post='1469792']
I have the opposite problem, as bass has more omni-directional frequencies (Bill?)[/quote]Bass cabs are omni-directional to about 250Hz, and don't beam much below 1kHz, so they're generally not hard to hear on stage unless cancellation modes mask their output.[quote] I never get much of the guitarist from the other side of the drummer nor the keys next to me but with his speaker the opposite side of him.[/quote]That's because most of their bandwidth is in the directional frequencies, and if their cabs have drivers placed side by side they're beaming through most of their range. The only solution is to have them in the monitors.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Marvin]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1324045515' post='1470200']
Bass cabs are omni-directional to about 250Hz, and don't beam much below 1kHz, so they're generally not hard to hear on stage unless cancellation modes mask their output.That's because most of their bandwidth is in the directional frequencies, and if their cabs have drivers placed side by side they're beaming through most of their range. The only solution is to have them in the monitors.
[/quote]

I sort of understand what 'beaming' is. This is a question out of sheer curiosity, how does speaker configuration affect beaming? Or what affect does speaker configuration have on beaming?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1324056989' post='1470457']
I sort of understand what 'beaming' is. This is a question out of sheer curiosity, how does speaker configuration affect beaming? Or what affect does speaker configuration have on beaming?
[/quote]The angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the source. That's the #1 reason why midranges are smaller than woofers, and tweeters smaller still. Guitars have most of their frequency content above 1kHz, where the dispersion of a twelve is rapidly collapsing. Worse, when two twelves are placed side by side their dispersion on the horizontal plane falls to that of a twenty-four inch driver.The simple solution is to use eights and tens, not twelves, and stack them vertically, for maximum dispersion on the horizontal plane. But, while most guitarists are acutely aware that their cabs beam, as with the weather they complain about it but no one really does anything about it.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1324060674' post='1470509']
The angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the source. That's the #1 reason why midranges are smaller than woofers, and tweeters smaller still. Guitars have most of their frequency content above 1kHz, where the dispersion of a twelve is rapidly collapsing. Worse, when two twelves are placed side by side their dispersion on the horizontal plane falls to that of a twenty-four inch driver.The simple solution is to use eights and tens, not twelves, and stack them vertically, for maximum dispersion on the horizontal plane. But, while most guitarists are acutely aware that their cabs beam, as with the weather they complain about it but no one really does anything about it.
[/quote]

Thank you Bill.

[4 Strings]

Exactly, so if the OP can't hear himself, no-one else can be hearing him either.

[Mog]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1324021945' post='1469776']
Sounds like you are playing bigger stages that you rig can cover and you need side fills...
[/quote]
[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1324024201' post='1469792']
Surely if you can't hear yourself no-one else on stage can hear you either.
[/quote]
[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1324027644' post='1469846']
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I don't move around but I'm always been heard by the other band members. [u]If a 410 is ok and an 810 isn't,[/u] I'd blame the 810 cab. Maybe you need to eq differently for the 810?[/font][/color][/size]
[/quote]
[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1324117999' post='1470920']
Exactly, so if the OP can't hear himself, no-one else can be hearing him either.
[/quote]

Sorry bucks, had an exam yesterday.
The rig is 500 watts, should be more than enough for the majority of clubs. The guitatist/singer and the drummer have a constant monitor feed thats how they can hear the bass lines.
I was just wondering if a different cab config would disperse the sound across the stage more evenly and reduce the size of the areas where the bass feed is lacking.
As I said it seems to happen with 8x10 and nothing else so as Chris pointed out maybe I should be looking at the cabs in question.

[Reverend]

I did a tour recently where we were playing a lot of medium sized club venues - 300-400 capacity-ish on average, but our frontman had an awful lot of gear and amps on stage and I could never get my amp where I needed it. Also, his stuff was incredibly loud, and I didn't just want to turn up, as that would have been bad for everyone else's stage sound.

I found a nice solution: splitting up my rig and using one speaker output to run a using one powerful 2x10 cab that rocks back into a monitor wedge position, and putting it right where I was standing at the front of the stage. My own private monitor wedge. I left the other 1x15 speaker with my amp head near the back of the stage so the drummer could still get some feel for what I was doing. I thought I'd get phase cancelling issues at the low end due to the differing distances between myself and the two cabs, but it wasn't actually an issue. If you think about it, it's exactly the same as getting some bass back from the monitors desk to a monitor wedge or a side fill.

So yes, maybe the 8x10 isn't the answer, maybe downsizing slightly and making a more flexible rig is the solution.

Final thought: turning things up louder is not normally the best solution to solving sound issues. It just makes it harder for everyone else and usually results in a crap gig.

[leftyhook]

I may not be technically up as a lot of people on here, but the shape of a room, other peoples volume ( vocalists are obsessed with LOUD monitoring of their voice), the angle of your backline and furnishing ( curtains, carpets etc) can mean a big difference in sound projection. It can be a pain when you are standing 3 feet from your amp, happy with the volume, then you walk another 5 ft forward to sing and you backline gets lost. Then you take a few steps to the left to see what the drummer
may be hearing. "Where did my bass go?" Ive had arguments with a drummer saying I was 'bleachingly loud'. I tried a smaller amp for a few gigs to shut him up. It turns out he was getting overspill through his headphones because the desk was set up wrong. Believe me I am not a loud bassist.
Oh, and then there's the mixing on stage thing......let's not go there!
Turn up. You have to hear and 'feel' what you are producing, otherwise you will hit your strings too hard, causing fatigue, causing a lack of fluency.If you can set up so you can angle you cabs away slightly from the rest of the band.
I'm off to a gig tonight and I know I will have to set up in a different way that I did the last gig.If you can have your own monitor, or better still in-ear monitors then you will always be smiling.

[Prime_BASS]

If you don't have a PA supporting the bass then you have an issue, I've rarely been happy with onstage sound and volume. I primarily stand near the kit to help my groove and its loud as f***! I can usually hear everything fine and wonder why anyone else needs anything turning up in the monitors. As long as FOH sound is ok then onstage can be as poo as you like.

I'd get out there and try and hear your band play as if you were an audience member.
If you can hear yourself IN the mix out there I wouldn't worry.

I always struggle to hear my cab on stage no matter what I do, where as in a rehearsal room or at home it feels bloody loud!.

An excuse for in-ear monitoring?

[Lozz196]

I`ve had many cabs over the years, but I did a gig a couple of weeks ago with my current cab, an Eden E410XST, and it was the easiest to hear on-stage sound/volume I`ve ever had. I wasn`t particularly loud either, just to the same volume as the drums. I was thinking of selling it, as it`s a bit heavy, and I`m not overkeen on the sound - on it`s own I should add, in the mix it sounds fine - but having thought about that on-stage sound, I`m keeping it. Just have to get my bandmates to help me lift it.

[deepbass5]

Bill, Alex
can the situation arrise where one band members gear or the PA is out of phase with your Rig i.e. sucking not blowing so worth the old battery test on the speaker cab. cancelling your volume at a point on the stage. ??

Edited December 28, 2011 by deepbass5