Preampvalves for clear hifi tone,anyone?

[Anders]

OK,valves again.I'm looking for very good valves that has a full,tight clear sound and evenness of tone.Hifi I guess.
My current sound is too vintage,and too warm and a bit muddy in the lows and mids.
It's for my Orange AD 200 MK1 which uses 1 ECC81 and 1 ECC83(or similar).
I have tried TAD 7025 S Mullard style,JJ's,one Harma,one RFT and some more,looking for a warm sound.Now I want to try the opposite.
What have you tried and can recommend?

[umph]

Gut shots of the mark one please

I'd recomend going NOS and trying out phillips, JAN and mullard valves.

edit; Mil spec and bigger plates are good for what your after

Edited December 16, 2011 by umph

[Anders]

Sorry,no shots of my own but similar:
http://www.dustblow.com/ad200b/

Thanks.Do you know of a good store who has those?
I've seen them mostly on ebay.
Something like this perhaps?
http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=630
http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=1784
http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Tubes_amp_Accessoires_NOS_Rare_amp_Vintage/JAN_5751_NOS_USA_475

[Dood]

See if you can grab a nos GE 5751 , specifically the medical grade triple mica on black plates. A veritable HiFi banquet! Bit pricey but you'll be rewarded with crisp clarity that won't be out of place in home HiFi.

[Anders]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1324218991' post='1471903']
See if you can grab a nos GE 5751 , specifically the medical grade triple mica on black plates. A veritable HiFi banquet! Bit pricey but you'll be rewarded with crisp clarity that won't be out of place in home HiFi.
[/quote]
Thanks,
I'm going to use it for my bass amp but I bet it works good there too.
I've read lots of good reviews about that tube.Maybe it's more flat than the Philips JAN 5751 as said on the watfordvalves page.
http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=1784

[ShergoldSnickers]

I hope Anders will forgive the intrusion, but I'm after one (12AX7 or ECC83) that will add some smooth and gentle crunch as an alternative to the great clean sound I get from my Eden WT550 as it stands. Experimenting again. The valve in the Eden is a stock Ruby 12AX7AC5HG.

[BassBod]

I never heard any difference at all when changing the valve in an Eden WT400...I mean nothing. I could hear a difference in other amps/preamps, but not the Eden. I even put a nasty Groove Tube in (very brittle and hard in SWR and Alembic) but it sounded fine. No idea why...

Edit - back to topic: I got a GE 5751 from Watford several years ago, and its the cleanest clearest preamp sound I've ever got (out SWR/Alembic). Not sure it would qualify as HiFi but its certainly clean and almost impossible to drive hard.

Edited December 18, 2011 by BassBod

[VTypeV4]

The long plate Siemens were the best ECC83/12AX7 variant I've used..

[AttitudeCastle]

I really want someone to try a GE 5751 in an Orange Terror bass (i know it kind of defeats the purpose but still!) and to report back!

[BB3000S]

I've got two Ampeg SVT-IIp preams, one with NOS GE 5751's and one with something else, haven't opened it up. The difference is incredible, with the GE both holding together the low end better and with a top end clear as summer morning dew. It's a difference that is totally obvious also in a band setting.

[Anders]

[quote name='BB3000S' timestamp='1324239932' post='1472226']
I've got two Ampeg SVT-IIp preams, one with NOS GE 5751's and one with something else, haven't opened it up. The difference is incredible, with the GE both holding together the low end better and with a top end clear as summer morning dew. It's a difference that is totally obvious also in a band setting.
[/quote]
Hey hello!I know you from the Swedish forum.
Very interresting! Thanks!
I didn't expect that big changes from a preamptube,and maybe that tube gives similar result in the Orange amp.Definitly worth a try then.

[BB3000S]

[quote name='Anders' timestamp='1324242852' post='1472245']

Hey hello!I know you from the Swedish forum.
Very interresting! Thanks!
I didn't expect that big changes from a preamptube,and maybe that tube gives similar result in the Orange amp.Definitly worth a try then.
[/quote]
Hey Anders,
Yes, it's a small world innit? (But your nick on PB is something else right?)
I was really surprised about the difference when I first changed to the GE ones, but at that time I only had one SVT-IIp so I didn't think too much about it. Just play and be happy you know. When I got the second one I hooked them both up to my power amp so I could do some proper A/B switching between them and that made it very obvious how different they sound.

They both sound like an SVT-IIp though, so I would definitely expect your Orange to maintain the Orange character, but for sure it's worth a try and my bet is you will hear a difference depending on what tubes you feed it with. Good luck!

[Anders]

[quote name='BB3000S' timestamp='1324246252' post='1472281']
Hey Anders,
Yes, it's a small world innit? (But your nick on PB is something else right?)
I was really surprised about the difference when I first changed to the GE ones, but at that time I only had one SVT-IIp so I didn't think too much about it. Just play and be happy you know. When I got the second one I hooked them both up to my power amp so I could do some proper A/B switching between them and that made it very obvious how different they sound.

They both sound like an SVT-IIp though, so I would definitely expect your Orange to maintain the Orange character, but for sure it's worth a try and my bet is you will hear a difference depending on what tubes you feed it with. Good luck!
[/quote]
Many thanks.
Your information is excactly what I was hoping to find.

My nick on PB is Anders too.I use it on every forum but I know there is a Ton of Anders' on PB so it might seem a bit presumtuous.Wasn't my meaning,I'm just lazy.

[brensabre79]

Not all pre-amps benefit much from a valve change. A number of manufacturers design out the valve characteristics to keep control of the variables.

Valves can vary incredibly, even from the same batch from the same manufacturer (yes even NOS Mullards!) you'll quite often get 1 really good one to about 4 ok ones to about 6 not so good. To combat this, and keep the sound consistent, a lot of the characteristics of individual valves are designed out of the amp circuit to some extent. That way everyone gets a valve sound, but if the valve in there is one of the not-so-good ones you'll still get a good pre-amp sound. Some amps really drastically change when you swap valves (Mesa I know do), with others its difficult to tell the difference between a Tung-Sol and a Telefunken because they have designed it to work that way.

So before you go spending a fortune on cryogenically treated NOS military spec hi-fi valves, i'd try a couple of cheaper/free ones and see if you notice any differences first...
I don't know if you'll ever lose the 'Orange' sound just by replacing the pre-amp valves, Orange have quite a distinct growly tone to them which some love, others do not.

[KK Jale]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1324229525' post='1472075']
I really want someone to try a GE 5751 in an Orange Terror bass (i know it kind of defeats the purpose but still!) and to report back!
[/quote]

Can't help exactly but I have a GE 12AX7 in the V1 position in my Terror Bass and it's harder to drive (Gain is now on 3 or 4 as opposed to 1 or 2), clear, more detailed and more 3D, slightly more treble extension, and generally tip-top throughout

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='KK Jale' timestamp='1324483620' post='1474836']
Can't help exactly but I have a GE 12AX7 in the V1 position in my Terror Bass and it's harder to drive (Gain is now on 3 or 4 as opposed to 1 or 2), clear, more detailed and more 3D, slightly more treble extension, and generally tip-top throughout
[/quote]

Oooh that sounds nice,

Any sound clips you have of it anywhere?

[KK Jale]

Nope... sorry 'bout that

The GE was a definite improvement... mind you, lately I've been using a Headway EDB-1 for added EQ as well.

[Anders]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1324479436' post='1474769']
Not all pre-amps benefit much from a valve change. A number of manufacturers design out the valve characteristics to keep control of the variables.

Valves can vary incredibly, even from the same batch from the same manufacturer (yes even NOS Mullards!) you'll quite often get 1 really good one to about 4 ok ones to about 6 not so good. To combat this, and keep the sound consistent, a lot of the characteristics of individual valves are designed out of the amp circuit to some extent. That way everyone gets a valve sound, but if the valve in there is one of the not-so-good ones you'll still get a good pre-amp sound. Some amps really drastically change when you swap valves (Mesa I know do), with others its difficult to tell the difference between a Tung-Sol and a Telefunken because they have designed it to work that way.

So before you go spending a fortune on cryogenically treated NOS military spec hi-fi valves, i'd try a couple of cheaper/free ones and see if you notice any differences first...
I don't know if you'll ever lose the 'Orange' sound just by replacing the pre-amp valves, Orange have quite a distinct growly tone to them which some love, others do not.
[/quote]
Thanks for the tip.
I have tried some other preampvalves before in the Orange AD200MK1 that were cheaper and it didn't change the sound very much.But,all those valves had a soundcharacter that enhanced the sound that is already there.They had a vintage,warm sound (which is already there) but now as I'm going for something that is more even and tight and not the dreaded boomy,muddy-around 80-150Hz -and mids sound which is part of the vintage sound.I'm going to take a chance(and have ordered )from TAD a pair of good tubes.If it works it works.

I realise changing preamptubes doesn't change the tone much in some amps,but in some amps it does it seams.
As i'm trying to change the character a bit maybe some difference can be heard.Atleast Tubeampdoctor is a well known dealer and hopefully doesn't sell tubes without testing them first,atleast there will be some good tubes in the amp.We'll see.

I'm sure the Orange sound is still going to be there by the way.Maybe a bit tighter lowend atleast.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Anders