Chord tone vs scalar approach to improvising

[clarket2]

Hi guys,

I've just started at music college and it seems that we're being pedalled two approaches to improvising bass lines (specifically in a jazz context). The first is termed the 'chord tone' approach where the basic arppeggio of the chord is taken as the staring point with the other notes being up for grabs as it were. The second is to apply a specific scale over specific chords (ie a lydian scale over a maj7 chord). I was wondering which approach the bass playing community as a whole favours, as I am quite new to jazz playing?

Cheers,
Tom

[Bilbo]

Both. There is no 'one way' just a truckload of options. Try Pat martino's minor conversion theory or George Russell's Lydian Chromatic concept. There are others. Its just a voyage of discovery. Enjoy the journey.

[Faithless]

I think there is a difference in how you start - scales are basically the outcome of chord tones+tensions.
Pat Martino's 'minorization' concept is a super-imposition concept, which is really advanced - it's not for guys who don't know the basic 6 7th chords and tensions.

First you want to learn 'the grain' - six basic 7th chords - minor 7, dominant 7, major 7 - they're used for major II V I harmony..

And, another 3 in minor II V I: m7b5, diminshed, and minor(Maj7)......

Shed all inversions of each chord in all positions on bass (there are 5 positions for each chord).

I'd say, sign up for [url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/"]Joe Hubbard's[/url] newsletter (and don't forget to check out his stuff on his website) - last time he sent a "Fundamental Chord Worksheet" for those who are following him via newsletter - you'd get a better idea of what I'm talking about.
If you wouldnt get that sheet by signing up, don't hesitate to contact him, maybe he'd send you that.

easy
Laimis

[clarket2]

Cheers guys that's really helpful... I'm lucky enough to have Joe Hubbard work at my college (though he doesn't lecture me annoyingly), might see if I can pick his brains.

Cheers,
Tom[url="http://www.tomclarkebass.co.uk"] (http://www.tomclarkebass.co.uk)[/url]

[Hector]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1324125800' post='1471043']
I think there is a difference in how you start - scales are basically the outcome of chord tones+tensions.
Pat Martino's 'minorization' concept is a super-imposition concept, which is really advanced - it's not for guys who don't know the basic 6 7th chords and tensions.

First you want to learn 'the grain' - six basic 7th chords - minor 7, dominant 7, major 7 - they're used for major II V I harmony..

And, another 3 in minor II V I: m7b5, diminshed, and minor(Maj7)......

Shed all inversions of each chord in all positions on bass (there are 5 positions for each chord).

I'd say, sign up for [url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/"]Joe Hubbard's[/url] newsletter (and don't forget to check out his stuff on his website) - last time he sent a "Fundamental Chord Worksheet" for those who are following him via newsletter - you'd get a better idea of what I'm talking about.
If you wouldnt get that sheet by signing up, don't hesitate to contact him, maybe he'd send you that.

easy
Laimis
[/quote]

Great advice from Laimis as usual! I started a topic about it (and nobody replied so I guess nobody is that familiar) but Hal Galper's book "Forward Motion" really hammers home the importance of chord tones as the strongest possible method of outlining the harmony in your improvisations, and how their rhythmic placement can really make or break a line. Practising these chords in all inversions so you have them at your fingertips all over the neck really is the foundation of solid improvisation. It's also important to know how the chord tones change through a progression, in terms of voice leading. For example, in a ii-V-I in Cmajor we have Dmin7 G7 CMaj7. In this progression the 3rd of Dmin7, F, becomes the 7th of G7, whilst the 7th of Dmin7, C, resolves down a semitone to become the 3rd of the G7, B.

For me, I tend to think in terms of the way these chord tones (3rds and 7ths primarily, but roots, 5ths and sometimes 6ths are also useful) relate to one another across progressions, and my improvisation in aimed at linking these tones. The possibilities for how to link them are huge, pentatonics, arpeggios, synthetic scales, chromatic motion etc, but for me it starts with chord tones.

I'd just also like to add some info, in case anyone is confused about the role of the diminished chord in the minor ii-V-I:

Usually a minor ii-V-I is spelt iim7b5, V7b9, I min(Maj7). In C minor, this would be Dm7b5 G7b9 and Cmin(Maj7) However, a diminished chord can fit in place of the V7b9. The G7b9 for example, which has the notes G(root) B(3rd) D(5th) F(7th) and Ab(flat 9). If we ignore the root, we actually have a cheeky diminished chord: B D F Ab (stacked minor thirds). Thus, a Bdim chord can functionally take the place of the G7b9. In fact, because diminished chords are symmetrical, the diminished chords built off D F and Ab all contain the same notes as a Bdim, so the G7b9 can be substituted for any of: Bdim, Ddim, Fdim and Abdim. Neat.

[JPS]

Am I right in thinking that a lot of early jazz soloists used the melody of the tune as their starting point and then embellished it in some way, e.g. rhythmically, harmoncially etc?

[Bilbo]

Yes, they did. ItTs called thematic improvising and Sonny Rollins is the undisputed master of the technique. THe idea can be extended to any theme, however, including your own.

A great example is Branford Marsalis' soprano solo on 'Sister Cheryl' from Wynton Marsalis' first album. Branford picks up the closing phrase of Herbie Hancock's piano solo and then uses it's rhytmic phrasing as the hook for his own solo. It's beautiful. Its a simple idea but it really makes your solos musical.

[lobematt]

[quote name='JPS' timestamp='1324487938' post='1474895']
Am I right in thinking that a lot of early jazz soloists used the melody of the tune as their starting point and then embellished it in some way, e.g. rhythmically, harmoncially etc?
[/quote]

This is how I tend to do it, as I'm still pretty new to jazz improvising I sometimes find it difficult for my brain to keep up with the chord changes but thankfully my ears work a bit quicker than my brain does and I find it easier improvising using the melody as a guide really.

[Faithless]

Lobematt- that's why you, first of all, should improvise out of time, not with a recording on(which implies time, and time is moving forward), maybe writing out some ideas, so that you have something you can experiment with.
Improvising in time is not bad though, as you can check if the stuff you've been working on is coming out or not - if it's not, it means some more woodshed..

easy
Laimis

[lobematt]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1324557957' post='1475539']
Lobematt- that's why you, first of all, should improvise out of time, not with a recording on(which implies time, and time is moving forward), maybe writing out some ideas, so that you have something you can experiment with.
Improvising in time is not bad though, as you can check if the stuff you've been working on is coming out or not - if it's not, it means some more woodshed..

easy
Laimis
[/quote]

I do try a bit of improvising out of time but tend to end up noodling aimlessly, I'll keep at it though (maybe just with more concentration haha). Cheers bro