2 cabs, 2 different watts.

[pietruszka]

Hey, I have a confusing issue. I have a MB STD410 cab, and want to add a 210 of the same range.
The amp is an Aguilar AG 500 SC. So the set up with proposed extra cab is;
AG 500 head- 250 watts 8ohms, 500 at 4.
410 cab at 800 watts (8 ohms)
210 cab at 400 watts (8ohms)

The answer I have problems finding is what happens to the 210 in the full set up? will the 400 watt cab take the 500 watts, Im guessing the 500 head watts will be shared to each cab? And will the 210 be working harder than the 410 and be more prone to 'farting'? Or will the two cabs be working as they would on their own but alongside the other?

Will the watts from the cabs in a stack set up more relate to headroom rather than just power/volume?
I don't know and I have googled, wiki'd and searched on here with nothing close to answering my query.

Thank you for any light that can be shed.




Dan

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1325351128' post='1482441']
And will the 210 be working harder than the 410 and be more prone to 'farting'?
[/quote]

Yes, to avoid this you'd need the 210 to be 16 ohms which probably isn't available unfortunately, though perhaps you could source OEM replacement drivers of the correct ohm rating and drop them into the 210 version. Alternatively a 4 ohm 210 cab could be rewired to 16 ohm but this will alter the cab freq response. Before doing this, it might be worthwhile checking the nominal impedance of a single driver in your 410. If they use the same drivers in the 410 as the 210 4 ohm version, then you are sorted. If not, then it could still be done but will sound a little different.

[pietruszka]

Thank you for a quite frankly, fast reply! This is what I don't get, the Markbass website says the Standard 410 HR, which I have, will work with the 115 HR or the 210 HF. If the load isn't going to be even then how come 410's work with 115's?

Im not saying you're wrong but Iv read and heard so many conflicting answers.



Dan

[chris_b]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Don't bother rewiring anything!![/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]The amp is putting out 250 watts to each 8 ohm cab. That is a very comfortable load for the 210 and won't put it under any strain at all. The 410 is working half as hard so is under even less strain. [/font][/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]As you are very unlikely to be running the amp at full power these cabs will be under even less strain and will be working well within their comfort zones. You run no risk of damage by running this rig.[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[font=Arial][size=2] [/size][/font]

[pietruszka]

Thanks Chris, I emailed MB the same question last week and no reply yet. That doesn't mean they're bad, just more likely busy with it being Xmas.
That was my thinking but wasn't sure how it all works. Thank you Lawrence also.

Id like to hear other peoples input.



Dan

[MoonBassAlpha]

Both cabs will see 250W, as they're the same impedence. Each driver in the 210 will see 125W and each driver in the 410 will see 62.5W.
Both cabs will be well within their ratings, so I don't see a problem. The 210 should be less prone to farting out, as with more cone area in total you shouldn't need to push the whole rig as hard.

[pietruszka]

That makes sense. The aim is to have something small, medium and big. I did a fire works opening and the 410 sounded amazing but I did have to crank it and an extra cab would have been beneficial. To have a 210 would be excellent for smaller things or where just some stage monitoring is enough from something small. Plus Im playing tonight in an insanely busy club and dont fancy lugging a 410 through the crowd. Im borrowing a 210 off a fellow BCer.


Thanks every one!




Dan

[MoonBassAlpha]

Have a great gig! I hope you're getting a fortune for it!

[pietruszka]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1325354544' post='1482500']
Have a great gig! I hope you're getting a fortune for it!
[/quote]

Not as much as we'd like but still a reasonable amount. The place we're playing is notoriously tight when it comes to paying bands. They wont even replace dodgy cables in the house PA! But it's full of students and the wedding we played last night we got from playing this particular venue.

Have a great new year everyone.



Dan

Edited December 31, 2011 by pietruszka

[thepurpleblob]

Just in case it isn't clear (it's always worth stating it again) - the wattage rating on a speaker/cab is the 'maximum' it is rated to before it can/will/might break. To make matters worse it's often a lie because the marketing department likes to pick the biggest number possible to put on the box. Other than a vague guide, it's almost meaningless.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1325352409' post='1482463']
If the load isn't going to be even then how come 410's work with 115's?
[/quote]

I suppose they 'work' because the system isn't being pushed to its limits. But a 'typical' 115 will be less loud than a 'typical' 410, and when you crank it up it'll give up earlier as well so you can't get the most out of the 410 unless you bi-amp.
If your amp isn't capable of pushing the speakers to those limits then it doesn't really matter. But with a powerful active EQ it'd be perfectly possible to push the Markbass 102 beyond its excursion limits with just 250 watts. The thermal 400w rating is not an issue. (IIRC Markbass use an OEM version of B&C 10HPL64s, and the STD box size is quite generous so these could over-excurse with probably quite modest wattage.)
If you play something like a passive jazz without massive bass boost, then you may well be fine with the mismatch as Chris says. If you put the 210 on top then to you playing it will certainly seem much louder, since as well as the extra speaker-age the drivers closest to your ears will each be taking twice the wattage of those in the 410.

[thepurpleblob]

Of course, by the time you get where the audience is it won't matter so much. There is a school of thought that you shouldn't ever mix cabs (i.e. a 1x15 and a 2x10 is a bad plan). The different cab characteristics will generate interesting interference patterns (like having speakers out of phase) and it could sound horrible. The message is that is just isn't simple.

[chris_b]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]And then there is the experience of tens of thousands of bass players that have successfully mixed speakers for years. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Mesa Boogie, TC, Bergantino and our own Barefaced offer mixed speaker configs, so I wouldn't be afraid to mix and match. If it sounds good then it is![/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]

[JTUK]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1325424483' post='1482960']
I suppose they 'work' because the system isn't being pushed to its limits. But a 'typical' 115 will be less loud than a 'typical' 410, and when you crank it up it'll give up earlier as well so you can't get the most out of the 410 unless you bi-amp.
If your amp isn't capable of pushing the speakers to those limits then it doesn't really matter. But with a powerful active EQ it'd be perfectly possible to push the Markbass 102 beyond its excursion limits with just 250 watts. The thermal 400w rating is not an issue. (IIRC Markbass use an OEM version of B&C 10HPL64s, and the STD box size is quite generous so these could over-excurse with probably quite modest wattage.)
If you play something like a passive jazz without massive bass boost, then you may well be fine with the mismatch as Chris says. If you put the 210 on top then to you playing it will certainly seem much louder, since as well as the extra speaker-age the drivers closest to your ears will each be taking twice the wattage of those in the 410.
[/quote]

I'd go with this...

In principle, you have enough in hand to cope and put 250w into a 210.. and that is flaying the map which you very rarely would do..but in practice I think that cabs take less than their makers would like us to know.

I always have conservative expectations from cabs and EQ and bass boost can add a lot to the equation.... so I think this is a less than ideal set-up and one you'd need to keep any eye or ear out for when the volume creeps up..and that is the time when you can't hear as much as you would want, either.

Your thinking is entirely reasonable with regards to the modular break-down of the rig... but you need to keep on top of the volume expectations...
History..in this regard..teaches me that less to carry isn't always the best idea,

If I scale down a rig..it is because I KNOW it is a low volume..copmparitively...gig.

And I am also not a fan of ignoring or tolerating a cab 'farting' out... a serious NO in my book

[Lozz196]

I did the same thing with an Ampeg set up.

Both 210 & 410 were 8 ohm cabs, 210 was 250 watt cab, 410 was a 400 watt cab. Hooked them up to an amp delivering 500 watts at 4 ohms.

Run flat out, the 210 may have been pushed, but din`t get anywhere near that. The rig ran fine, and sounded great. The bonus being at rehearsals I could just use the 410, then at gigs use both, but wouldn`t need to change eq`s, as they were both from the same range.

[pietruszka]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1325756511' post='1487018']
I did the same thing with an Ampeg set up.

Both 210 & 410 were 8 ohm cabs, 210 was 250 watt cab, 410 was a 400 watt cab. Hooked them up to an amp delivering 500 watts at 4 ohms.

Run flat out, the 210 may have been pushed, but din`t get anywhere near that. The rig ran fine, and sounded great. The bonus being at rehearsals I could just use the 410, then at gigs use both, but wouldn`t need to change eq`s, as they were both from the same range.
[/quote]

This is what I don't understand, cab manufacturers advertise that you can do this, if each cab is getting an equal share of the amp watts which is well within the cabs capabilities, bassists use different cab set ups (NWR has used a 118+115+410+2x5). I used a 210 and had it louder than my 410 with no audible probs, it sounded amazing. So the amp wouldn't be much louder with the 410 as well. So I don't get this out of phase business, all this cabs aren't rated to what they're advertised and sold with. I don't mean any disrespect to those who have contributed, but if it's something that is common place why is there conflicting thoughts?

Again, I don't mean to cause any harm. I'm only trying to understand how it works before I part with £XXX's



Dan

[chris_b]

[color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]The benefit (for me) of more speakers is not more volume but to move more air and give me better tone and a better sound. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I wouldn't put 250 watts through any 250 watt cab so the supposed difference in manufacturer’s specs and reality is a non-issue for me. Nothing I own gets pushed more than half way. If I want louder I'll get more powerful gear. Currently the loudest rig I have used in anger is a 550 watt amp through 800 watts of speakers. That can go louder than I need in any situation; even the Led Zep band and they are extremely loud.[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Some cabs can be out of phase, that is the sound waves don't match and can cancel each other out at certain frequencies and places in the room, and some cabs won't be out of phase, so mixing those is ok. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I successfully ran EV 10's and 15's for years but the 10's designed these days can put out more bottom end than many of the old 15's so, unless it's a Barefaced cab, I wouldn't look at a 15 now.[/font][/color][/size][/size][/font][/color]

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1325765630' post='1487209']
So I don't get this out of phase business, all this cabs aren't rated to what they're advertised and sold with
[/quote]

Phase is a separate issue and IMO one that bassists rarely encounter as a problem when mixing cabs. Most of our cabs are tuned fairly similarly, in the region 45-60 Hz. Any significant cancellations will be in a narrow band and in the low bass region, it may well be very audible if you A/Bed it and it would matter for PA but for bass guitar you're probably not going to notice, and it won't affect the majority of your 'tone' which is really more about the mid-range.

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1325756511' post='1487018']
Run flat out, the 210 may have been pushed, [b]but din`t get anywhere near that[/b]. The rig ran fine, and sounded great.
[/quote]

When it works, this is why it works. All kit is being run with plenty of headroom.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1325750411' post='1486925']
I always have conservative expectations from cabs and [b]EQ and bass boost can add a lot to the equation[/b]....
[/quote]

This is why it doesn't always work! If you consider the signal from a passive jazz bass then probably well less than half the total energy is in the lowest octave of the bass. But stick a J Retro in there for example and you have up to 15dB of bass boost centred at 50Hz. In power terms that is an astonishing 32 times as much power as the passive signal! Even if you 'only' add 6dB boost that is still 4 times as much power in the bottom octave as the original passive signal. Adjust the gain at the amp to compensate and suddenly your signal is dominated, in power terms, by low bass. But having adjusted the gain it'll now sound [b]quieter[/b] than before even though the total power output is the same, because volume perception is dominated by the mid-range. So you turn up the amp to a similar subjective loudness than before, just with a bit more bass. Now, the speakers are seeing more total power (watts) and far more of that signal is concentrated in the bottom octave where mechanical excursion, rather than thermal handling, is the practical limit on speaker output. Any weak link in the chain will be evident.

This is all further complicated by what the (pre-)amp may do to the signal in terms of adaptive compression (as in the TC heads), high pass filters etc, not to mention any pedals/FX. But overall I hope the message that comes across is that bass guitars can vary massively in their output characteristics, and what may work flawlessly in one scenario will struggle in another. So to have a good idea of what will work for you, understand the nature of your particular desired bass tone. If you constantly boost the bass by a significant amount or run your kit at full tilt then long excursion drivers are much more likely to make a worthwhile difference to you and matching cabs becomes important. If not, then don't worry about it.

[JTUK]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1325769725' post='1487352']
Phase is a separate issue and IMO one that bassists rarely encounter as a problem when mixing cabs. Most of our cabs are tuned fairly similarly, in the region 45-60 Hz. Any significant cancellations will be in a narrow band and in the low bass region, it may well be very audible if you A/Bed it and it would matter for PA but for bass guitar you're probably not going to notice, and it won't affect the majority of your 'tone' which is really more about the mid-range.

[/quote]

Agree..... I wondered when someone would be able to post this..!! at last.



The think about having or not having spare headroom in hand...is that at the time when you really need to be doing something about it, the sound levels have likely gone and you may not hear the damage being down to the speaker.

I do admit my my experiences started on gear that you wouldn't touch nowadays... but I think most cabs are breakable if you let that situation arise.
If I run 550w from the amp active... then I keep a very tight reign on the volume on that amp..which may be around 2-3 on the dial of that amp. I have no idea what that equates to in watts
but it is LOUD and powerful and the sound hasn't 'gone' as it may in some amps...where the volume is maxed out but your can still push EQ somewhat.
This is the quality of the amp, though, IMO.
That is as loud as I have had my cabs and as loud as I would go. I do have 15db on the bass.... which will destroy the bass sound ( I've always thought 15bd unuseable, anyway)
and my cabs are rated 700watts.

Note..if your volume/gain is up at 75% on the dials..that may not mean you are using 75% of that amp... far from it..so all these things become subject to another reference..likely your ears.

Do I think I could blow them up...Absolutely..!!

[thepurpleblob]

What you don't want to do is to constantly run your amp at "eleven". It's distortion (specifically clipping in the output stages) that shortens the life of speakers more than overpowering the speakers (which is hard to pin down because it's real sound not nice sine waves which are used for all the calculations).

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1325774739' post='1487457']
but I think most cabs are breakable if you let that situation arise.
[/quote]

Absolutely, exacerbated by the fact most of us use ported cabinets. Although it reduces cone excursion in the midbass, below resonance the ported box provides no damping so cone movement increases compared to the equivalentsized sealed cab. It's easy to generate massive sub-bass frequencies, lower and more powerful than those of the bass notes themselves, just from thumping the strings, and these are probably the easiest way of wrecking your cab at high power! Best solution is a steep sub-bass filter, like on most decent PA amps.

[JTUK]

Also..I refer to the dial as per a clock face... so 2-3 is typically VERY loud.

11 is not even half way on the dial..again, whatever that means.

This is because you don't see the dial indented with numbers anymore..???

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1325777383' post='1487503']
Also..I refer to the dial as per a clock face... so 2-3 is typically VERY loud.

11 is not even half way on the dial..again, whatever that means.

This is because you don't see the dial indented with numbers anymore..???
[/quote]

seriously?

[JTUK]

yep.... otherwise 7 or so means 2-3 o 'clock..but there is no really defined start point...i,e no numbers, just a guess..so for a reference, 2 or 3 o'clock means something to everyone..

But, I am not anal about it..just makes sense to me.

[thepurpleblob]

I was having a Spinal Tap moment