I promised there would be some silly questions!! Left hand technique

[risingson]

I've been reading up a lot on technique today so I can start off learning as best I can. Because like many I've come from an electric bass background, I'm very used to playing in finger-per-fret position, so that scales and runs all fall easily and musically under my fingers. Can the same logic be applied to double bass, or is it frowned upon? I've noticed that the majority of players I've been watching use position playing but I haven't noticed any kind of major pattern emerging from it all yet. If anyone does fancy shining some light on left hand technique I would be very grateful at this stage!

Cheers, Liam

Edited January 3, 2012 by risingson

[Clarky]

The long taught Simandl method uses only the first, second and fourth fingers to 'fret', with the third finger acting as a support for the fourth finger. Like any other instrument, as the years have gone on new styles have developed and many more contemporary players finger a DB similarly to an electric bass. It is important to have your left wrist and forearm angle correct (your elbow should be elevated, not dangling loosely, in a sort of arrow shape) to maintain positioning and stamina.

[risingson]

That is what I've been looking at for the best part of today. My old bass tutor at Uni showed me Simandl's book and we briefly went through it, but to no great extent. Cheers Clarky!

[Beer of the Bass]

A lot of players seem to use the 1,2,4 Simandl fingering lower down, but change to one finger per semitone further up the neck where the span fits the hand better. Given that you're playing a half size bass, you might make that change at a lower position than most, but it's still going to be worth using 1,2,4 in the lower couple of positions for better intonation and less fatigue. Mind you, I use Simandl type fingering at the low end of my bass guitar too.

[Silvia Bluejay]

Another 1, 2, 4 player here - my hands are simply too small for normal bass guitar fingering on the DB, especially as I use the lower positions a lot.

PS 'fretting hand' would be preferable to 'left hand' for us poor godforsaken lefties!

[fatback]

Simandl nearly made me quit. If you're a bass player who used one finger per fret it's hugely frustrating.

The breakthrough for me was discovering the Rabbath technique; it uses a thumb pivot just like you use on electric. Better still, there's only half a dozen positions to get accurate about about rather than zillions, and they're thumb positions rather than 'fret' positions. Much easier to get intonation right because you're not moving your arm as much as with Simandl. You can happily add Simandl as an option as you go along, of course. I made the whole thing easy for myself by adding some white sticky markers to the side of the fingerboard where the thumb positions are.

There's no quality beginner's book for Rabbath that i know of, but I found this video series really helpful.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54pMdTCmo8g[/media]

I just applied the fingering to other non-rabbath books, and get along that way.

The huge bonus of the method is that you already know how to play in all the keys; all you have to do is restrict the number of your bass guitar thumb positions rather than having potentially a thumb at every 'fret'.

The downside of Rabbath is that you may find it hard to get a teacher to feel comfortable with you doing it. The upside is that you'll certainly be gigging much faster than with Simandl.

EDIT: @ bluejay, ust saw your comment about small hands. I have too. It's the pivot that makes everything work with Rabbath, and I add another thumb position as well.

Important point here is that Rabbath uses 1,2,4 but the span is wider, giving an extra note.

Edited January 4, 2012 by fatback

[BassBus]

Regarding the raising/lowering of the elbow. I think raising the elbow puts a lot of strain on the shoulder, certainly does with mine. The important thing is to make sure your wrist is as straight as possible. This avoids injury from too much tension in tendons and muscles. Watch some clips of good players and see how they do it.

Like the Simadl/Rabbath approaches, try a number of different angles and find what suits you. We are all built differently so it's up to you to find what suits you. A good teacher will work with you in this way. A teacher who is dogmatic about 'the' way to do it is perhaps not the best teacher, not just in bass playing but anything in life. Always try as many different approaches as you can find and go with the one that feels best for you.

[jakenewmanbass]

I find the idea of pivoting in Rabbath fascinating... good video, thanks.

[Silvia Bluejay]

Thanks for the video, Fatback. Will watch again and again and learn!

[fatback]

Here is the full set of Sturm discussions of Rabbath. I found the last one especially useful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=54pMdTCmo8g
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvELQVB37yo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTbF6QP-FoY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BW8UVI0Wo0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRAEMzMKQQU

[Silvia Bluejay]

Bookmarked! Thanks again.

[risingson]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1325763235' post='1487158']
Here is the full set of Sturm discussions of Rabbath. I found the last one especially useful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=54pMdTCmo8g
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvELQVB37yo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTbF6QP-FoY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BW8UVI0Wo0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRAEMzMKQQU
[/quote]

Cheers Fatback, I did see this the other but it was really informative.

Very interesting stuff. I'm enjoying playing upright, but I'm fighting it at the moment trying to get my intonation together and it's just going to take a lot of work. Makes me appreciate people like John Patitucci and Christian McBride all the more for being able to double up on electric as well as acoustic.

The other thing not helping is that the strings that came on the bass aren't great. Think I'm going to order up some D'Addario Helicore Hybrids for it when I get the chance.

[Silvia Bluejay]

... but in the meantime, Fast Fret works miracles on long-scale flatwounds - seriously.

[risingson]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1325775187' post='1487463']
... but in the meantime, Fast Fret works miracles on long-scale flatwounds - seriously.
[/quote]

It's less to do with that and more to do with the amount of give in the D and G strings. Very springy indeed, seem to be plastic wrapped, unlike the E and A that are just like regular DB flatwounds. I don't know much about DB strings but I know I'd like more a bit more tension from them.

[fatback]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1325774005' post='1487442']
Cheers Fatback, I did see this the other but it was really informative.

Very interesting stuff. I'm enjoying playing upright, but I'm fighting it at the moment trying to get my intonation together and it's just going to take a lot of work. Makes me appreciate people like John Patitucci and Christian McBride all the more for being able to double up on electric as well as acoustic.

The other thing not helping is that the strings that came on the bass aren't great. Think I'm going to order up some D'Addario Helicore Hybrids for it when I get the chance.
[/quote]

Strings are a whole world again. Lots of good info on here though. I ended up going for metal strings so i could use a mag pickup if I had feedback problems. But naturally, having gone that route, i then found I didn't have feedback problems at all with my piezzo, so needn't have bothered. Upright seems to be all like that.

[Clarky]

This Rabbath method looks very interesting for someone (ie, me!) Who can lose his way on the 'fretboard' when moving up and down the neck of a DB. Two questions though, Fatback:

In the vid, Sturm teaches first position with the first fingered note on the G string as an A. If you wanted to, say, play G# followed by A, would you use your first finger for both and slide from one note to the next (which I assume as it maintains integrity of overall hand/thumb position)?

And in the second position, is your thumb opposite (using the G string again) the C or C# (I am assuming the latter, so your first finger falls naturally on C)?

Cheers Clarky

[BassBus]

I had a go at the pivoting method last night and, for me, found it much easier to find the notes moving up the neck. I'd be interested to hear other's comments on Clarky's query as well.

[fatback]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1325833897' post='1488388']
This Rabbath method looks very interesting for someone (ie, me!) Who can lose his way on the 'fretboard' when moving up and down the neck of a DB. Two questions though, Fatback:

In the vid, Sturm teaches first position with the first fingered note on the G string as an A. If you wanted to, say, play G# followed by A, would you use your first finger for both and slide from one note to the next (which I assume as it maintains integrity of overall hand/thumb position)?

And in the second position, is your thumb opposite (using the G string again) the C or C# (I am assuming the latter, so your first finger falls naturally on C)?

Cheers Clarky
[/quote]

Basically, the thumb positions are at the harmonics. I tend to think of them on the E string cos it's nearest to my thumb, and on the guitar that's where the side markers are, but that's just because i don't naturally think Simandl. If I understand it correctly, you could slide G#-A or not depending on what you needed to do next. I add another thumb position at the A, as I've got small hands and that makes everything easier for me.

The second thumb position is C on the G string.

I don;t know whether it's right or wrong, but my 'rest' position tends to be with the thumb opposite the second finger, as it's easy to pivot either direction from there.

I saw Rabbath interviewed somewhere and he insisted that 'fingering doesn't matter'. And of course that makes sense when the accuracy is coming from the thumb position. You can finger any way seems most efficient. I found that very liberating.

The way i see it, Rabbath is great for a bass guitarist because you have the map of the fingerboard already in your head. The big challenge for me, i find, is getting absolutely accurate and consistent with the thumb positions, and everything depends on that. At least there are only a few to worry about. People often disapprove of side markers, but I've found them invaluable for constantly checking the thumb in practice, and you don't rely on them anyway if you're reading.

Edited January 6, 2012 by fatback

[Clarky]

Great, thanks for that. Going to have a try-out this weekend as it looks a very sensible methodology

[fatback]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1325854803' post='1488768']
Great, thanks for that. Going to have a try-out this weekend as it looks a very sensible methodology
[/quote]

Let us know how you get on. I found it straining on the little finger at first until I paid more attention to using 3 and 4 together properly on the pivot. Apart from that, it's been pretty easy to get the hang of, and there's none of the Simandl business of slogging through the positions before you can play in all keys.

[jakenewmanbass]

I have been using this method in my practise this afternoon, very interesting. I had always given it a swerve because I felt that using the third finger was fraught with tendon strain danger and given that I've been playing most days of my life since the age of 8 (that's 36 years) I didn't want to risk it.

Now it appears that it's simply more about pivoting than necessarily using the third finger, ironically it's what I've been doing in thumb position for an age, just making little reaches for what ever 'makes sense' so I'm wondering if that is where the methodology was inspired...

Tbh even though I have basically used the traditional position playing I do encourage students to basically forget that once the muscle memory is in place.

Practising major and chromatic scales over 2 octaves (3 where possible with dropping to 2nd/3rd of scale) in 12 keys is for me THE single best way of being in the right position with your hand. This makes for very efficient playing because if your arm/hand is in te right place all you have do with your fingers is put them down.... I do get complimented on my intonation so I guess I'm doing something right

Edited January 6, 2012 by jakenewmanbass

[BassBus]

Now you are the kind of teacher everyone should have, Jake. Willing to try something new when it comes along. That's what keeps techniques moving forward.

[fatback]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1325872398' post='1489238']
Now you are the kind of teacher everyone should have, Jake. Willing to try something new when it comes along. That's what keeps techniques moving forward.
[/quote]

+1 to that

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1325872398' post='1489238']
Now you are the kind of teacher everyone should have, Jake. Willing to try something new when it comes along. That's what keeps techniques moving forward.
[/quote]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1325874067' post='1489275']
+1 to that
[/quote]

[Owen]

I started DB when I was 15, having been booted out of 'cello lessons for not practicing. My teacher had studied with Gary Karr and she advocated 1234 all over the fingerboard. I knew no different and went with it. I got some pretty funny looks when I ventured beyond my county music system and encountered other tutors. They were pretty derogatory about what my left hand was doing but my hands are big and intonation has never been an issue, even though the beginning of the really slow variation in Enigma was an adventure I have had students with not as much span and they have indulged in the closed hand thing lower down and then gone extended as they moved up the neck. The real answer is whatever works for you. The DB as we know it is a relatively young instrument and there are all sorts of ways of playing it. If you can do 1234 then by all means do so. It opens things up for a lot less moving around.