Ampeg tone. Punchy?

[Ray]

I'm thinking of selling my GK 700RB-II and NEO112. I've never been completely happy with the tone - a little too hi-fi and edgy although I like the punchiness. I'm looking for a slightly warmer sound but not wooly like the Ashdown ABM tone (I really don't like the ABM tone).

My interest has turned to the new Ampeg BA300/210 combo. I'm not familiar with the Ampeg tone. Can you get a good mid-range punch from Ampeg's?

I play mainly funk and jazz.

Any thoughts/advice appreciated.

Thanks,

Ray

[alexclaber]

I don't have much useful to contribute but I'd like to suggest the words 'punchy' and 'warm' are banned.

Have you tried turning your treble down, using less bright strings and/or muting a bit?

Alex

[Dread Bass]

i use my ampeg head in our metal band and it cuts through well with mids being selectable which freq to boost.

I love mine

[Ray]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='167756' date='Apr 1 2008, 04:32 PM']I don't have much useful to contribute but I'd like to suggest the words 'punchy' and 'warm' are banned.[/quote]
1. Why? I think they are good adjectives for describing bass tone.

2. It's a bit off to reply, admit you don't have much to contribute then criticize my original post!

[quote name='alexclaber' post='167756' date='Apr 1 2008, 04:32 PM']Have you tried turning your treble down, using less bright strings and/or muting a bit?[/quote]
Yes (tone control is always less than halfway and I use flats) but this isn't the issue. It's the general GK tone I'm not happy with. As I said, I'm looking for a [b]warmer [/b]tone but wondered if the Ampeg would be [b]punchy [/b]enough.

[gilmour]

I'm not an Ashdown fan either, and mostly play Funk/Jazz, for which I don't like the Ampeg tone. I tend to find it not HiFi enough, but I guess it's all a matter of taste. I've recently started using an Eden which at first I found a little 'sterile' (too HiFi) but after being more agggresive with the EQ have found a tone I'm happy with. I like Trace for the punch, and have found the new Roland range excellent.

Dunno if this post is much help really, I guess it boils down to personal taste.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Ray' post='167819' date='Apr 1 2008, 05:14 PM']1. Why? I think they are good adjectives for describing bass tone.[/quote]

No they're not. In a decade of reading similar posts I have concluded that few bassists actually agree on what they consider punchy or warm. It's the inherent nature of the bass guitar to sound both punchy and warm so once you start using those same words to discuss tonal specifics you have nowhere to go.

[quote name='Ray' post='167819' date='Apr 1 2008, 05:14 PM']Yes (tone control is always less than halfway and I use flats) but this isn't the issue. It's the general GK tone I'm not happy with. As I said, I'm looking for a [b]warmer [/b]tone but wondered if the Ampeg would be [b]punchy [/b]enough.[/quote]

And this is where we get to the original problem. What is "punchy enough" to you? And what do you really mean by warmer?

Generalising by brand name is equally suspect, it's up there with assuming all speakers of equal diameters sound the same.

I suspect the lack of warmth you're suffering is due to your 1x12" being incapable of moving sufficient air whilst remaining clean. Add another matching cab and your problem is likely to be solved.

Alex

[Wil]

I use both a GK112 and GK212 with a Markbass head and DHA preamp. Those cabs combined are more than capable of providing punch in plentiful amounts, but the 112 on its own does not. If you want punch, you'll need more speaker area than one 1x12 cab IMO. Warmth? I reckon the GK Neo cabs can be very warm, but again without the 2x12 I have to dial in less bottom, which in turn makes the sound less "warm".

[The Funk]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='167843' date='Apr 1 2008, 06:01 PM']In a decade of reading similar posts I have concluded that few bassists actually agree on what they consider punchy or warm.[/quote]

I agree with grumpy Alex. But there's a nice way and then there's a blunt way.

[DirkThrust]

I don't think Alex is being grumpy, just helpful and well informed as always. I think you misunderstand the tone of his post.

[steve-soar]

It's time for one of Alex's screen shots of comparison frequency graphs. There is NO susbstitute for actually trying loads of different set ups in your band. It can take years to find a tone you like, it depends how fussy you are.
As for Ampeg not being hifi enough thats a load of bull and the adjective "hifi" used in bass amplification grinds my gears.
I totally agree with what Alex says, if you don't want blunt then how much sugar do you want on it?

[The Funk]

I don't need any sugar on it. But some people don't appreciate the direct approach as much as others might.

[alexclaber]

I'm so sugary sweet in person that I have to balance it out with my online persona.

Alex

[steve-soar]

The Funk, that wasn't for you, I apologise.

[The Funk]

No problem. No apology necessary!

[Ray]

Thanks for your advice. All taken on-board. It's going to be a long and expensive journey to find my ideal setup!

[David Nimrod]

[quote name='Ray' post='168149' date='Apr 2 2008, 08:43 AM']It's going to be a long and expensive journey to find my ideal setup![/quote]


No it's not, just try a few amps/cabs/combos... With an open mind something will sound right

As much more erudite posters than me have said, [i][b]it's personal[/b][/i], adjectives don't work!!!

And brands don't all sound the same, I don't think cliche's are helpful to anyone here.

If Ashdowns were woolly why would MK have a signature head? Or John Entwistle? etc. etc.

Like any amp they can sound enormously different depending on the EQ, the bass, the strings, the player.

There are also so many variables and personal interpretations of sound that it has to be up to you...

[chris_b]

[quote name='Ray' post='168149' date='Apr 2 2008, 08:43 AM'].... It's going to be a long and expensive journey to find my ideal setup!....[/quote]
It can be expensive but it doesn't have to be!
In my opinion, your best bet is to try another 112 cab with your current set up. I’d listen to 2 GK 112's, the sound/tone will be improved a lot by adding another speaker. Or add an Aguilar GS112, with its bassier tone it might even out the hifi-ness of the GK cab.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Ray' post='168149' date='Apr 2 2008, 08:43 AM']Thanks for your advice. All taken on-board. It's going to be a long and expensive journey to find my ideal setup![/quote]

No, it needn't be.

At low volumes any bass amp should be able to produce the sound you want, within reason. The problem you run into is maintaining that tone at gig volumes. We are bass players and as such our speakers have to be able to produce bass frequencies in substantial quantities, which requires moving air. This is done by the speakers moving forwards and backwards - the amount the speakers can move fore and aft multiplied by the area of the speakers gives you the amount of clean bass the rig can produce.

I had the pleasure of trying quite a few nice rigs at the bass bash and one thing I noticed was that none of the smaller cabs could cleanly produce bottom at a good volume. They all did produce lows but they were those punchy lows which are actually a result of the speakers moving out of their linear zone, which subtly distorts and noticeably compresses the sound. Once you get up to 4x10" sized cabs you're in a situation where in less loud bands you can actually get clean bottom instead of 'punchy' bottom.

So I strongly believe that if you added another matching cab to your rig you'd be able to get the 'warm' bottom you want.

The other issue is one of amp preshapes - that's the tone curve the manufacturer designs into the amp with the EQ set 'flat'. Unfortunately I can't find the image but in an old thread on another forum a whole load of us ran frequency analysis software through our amps and posted the results. One of these was a GK and what we found was that the sound sloped up towards the highs with the EQ set flat. To get a reasonably flat response you had to turn the treble all the way down! So don't be afraid to really twist those knobs (apart from the bass knob that is - twist that far and you'll quickly send your speakers beyond clean and into 'punchy').

The last thing I'd suggest is selling a nice head and cab and replacing them with a combo, an Ampeg one least of all.

Do try an Eden head, I can see one of them working well, particularly the ones with a valve in. The only small cab I can imagine actually getting you the sound you want is an Acme Low-B2 but if you're happier with something bigger, or a pair of cabs, then the world is your oyster.

In the meantime, try to use the room acoustics in your favour by taking advantage of wall or corner reinforcement wherever possible.

Alex

[gilmour]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='167976' date='Apr 1 2008, 09:50 PM']...As for Ampeg not being hifi enough thats a load of bull and the adjective "hifi" used in bass amplification grinds my gears.[/quote]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='168071' date='Apr 1 2008, 11:29 PM']The Funk, that wasn't for you, I apologise.[/quote]

I guess it was meant for me. I'll try to clarify whay I meant by avoiding genric terms like HiFi and Punchy which we can all be guilty of.

To clarify, In nearly 20 years of playing I've not once played through an ampeg that I was happy with the tone of. Most of the gigs I do awhere a backline is provided it is an Ampeg (often an SVT model). I wouldn't like to guess the number of times I'd used one, but I'm sure it would be around 3 figures.

I find that they colour the sound way too much for my liking, distracting from the tone and sound of the bass itself, I also feel that the tone is a little more muffled and less tansparent than I like, no matter how I play with the EQ (and I've tried many combinations) I've never found something that I'm happy with.

I prefer a much more clear and transparent tone that retians the original charecteristics of the bass itself (what I mean by HiFi), I would then usually enhance this in accordance to the style of music and venue.

Most of the gigs I do are also funk and Jazz (also the styles Ray metions in his post) which is why I thought I'd comment on what I prefer.

I have heard Ampegs used effectivley for Rock and heavier music, often to good effect with passive basses (which I suspect is why most venues have them as a backline, as the majority of live music people go to watch is heavier). Again I wouldn't describe the tone as transparent more gut wrenching and low (sorry trying to avoid saying punchy ) I like that quality, but I feel that fills, and subtelties in the playing get lost, ideal for heavier music. Personally, I don't find it well suited to Jazz/Funk where clarity and subtelty are much more apparent.

I feel the same way about all the ashdowns I've tried, although have to confess I've never played the MK sig version. unfortunatley Ashdowns also have a terrible reputation for reliability so I doubt I will ever entertain buying one.

Hope that clarifies what I meant

Edited April 2, 2008 by gilmour

[bremen]

[quote name='gilmour' post='168310' date='Apr 2 2008, 11:16 AM']I find that they [Ampegs] colour the sound way too much for my liking, distracting from the tone and sound of the bass itself, I also feel that the tone is a little more muffled and less tansparent than I like, no matter how I play with the EQ (and I've tried many combinations) I've never found something that I'm happy with.

I prefer a much more clear and transparent tone that retians the original charecteristics of the bass itself (what I mean by HiFi),[/quote]

Yes, that's what I understand folk to mean when they say HiFi.

And yes, Ampegs do colour the sound. I like that colour, suits my current bass and my style, but I have played other basses and other styles where it just wouldn't have been right. I've never found the EQ setting on an Ampeg to stop it sounding like an Ampeg; the thing to do is find the setting that makes it sound most like one. If you see what I mean.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='168177' date='Apr 2 2008, 08:53 AM']So I strongly believe that if you added another matching cab to your rig you'd be able to get the 'warm' bottom you want.

In the meantime, try to use the room acoustics in your favour by taking advantage of wall or corner reinforcement wherever possible.

Alex[/quote]
+1. Eg - I have a 2x10 combo that doesn't quite cut it live - the volume is there, but no "fullness" - now there's a word. When I add another 2x10, it fills the room, even at the same perceived volume level. Oh, and it's an ABM! And indeed - chuck it in the corner!

John.

[Ray]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='168177' date='Apr 2 2008, 09:53 AM']No, it needn't be.

At low volumes any bass amp should be able to produce the sound you want, within reason. The problem you run into is maintaining that tone at gig volumes. We are bass players and as such our speakers have to be able to produce bass frequencies in substantial quantities, which requires moving air. This is done by the speakers moving forwards and backwards - the amount the speakers can move fore and aft multiplied by the area of the speakers gives you the amount of clean bass the rig can produce.

I had the pleasure of trying quite a few nice rigs at the bass bash and one thing I noticed was that none of the smaller cabs could cleanly produce bottom at a good volume. They all did produce lows but they were those punchy lows which are actually a result of the speakers moving out of their linear zone, which subtly distorts and noticeably compresses the sound. Once you get up to 4x10" sized cabs you're in a situation where in less loud bands you can actually get clean bottom instead of 'punchy' bottom.

So I strongly believe that if you added another matching cab to your rig you'd be able to get the 'warm' bottom you want.

The other issue is one of amp preshapes - that's the tone curve the manufacturer designs into the amp with the EQ set 'flat'. Unfortunately I can't find the image but in an old thread on another forum a whole load of us ran frequency analysis software through our amps and posted the results. One of these was a GK and what we found was that the sound sloped up towards the highs with the EQ set flat. To get a reasonably flat response you had to turn the treble all the way down! So don't be afraid to really twist those knobs (apart from the bass knob that is - twist that far and you'll quickly send your speakers beyond clean and into 'punchy').

The last thing I'd suggest is selling a nice head and cab and replacing them with a combo, an Ampeg one least of all.

Do try an Eden head, I can see one of them working well, particularly the ones with a valve in. The only small cab I can imagine actually getting you the sound you want is an Acme Low-B2 but if you're happier with something bigger, or a pair of cabs, then the world is your oyster.

In the meantime, try to use the room acoustics in your favour by taking advantage of wall or corner reinforcement wherever possible.

Alex[/quote]
Thanks Alex. That's really helpful. I did think about adding another NEO112 a while ago. It's definitely back at the top of my to-do list.

Ray

P.S. Sorry if I over-reacted to your first reply.

[The Funk]

The funny thing about the big Ampeg 8x10s is that a lot of funk players used to use them back in the 70s. But I personally don't think they're clear or defined enough for some types of funk playing now.

Edited April 2, 2008 by The Funk

[cheddatom]

I can't see the point in buying an amp that colours your tone that much. I have pedals to colour my sound, and amps to amplify it.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Ray' post='168434' date='Apr 2 2008, 02:21 PM']P.S. Sorry if I over-reacted to your first reply.[/quote]

No problem - let me know if you fellow funksters are playing the Brighton vicinity and need a support act at some point!

[quote name='The Funk' post='168448' date='Apr 2 2008, 02:30 PM']The funny thing about the big Ampeg 8x10s is that a lot of funk players used to use them back in the 70s. But I personally don't think they're clear or defined enough for some types of funk playing now.[/quote]

Two things - the old 8x10"s don't sound the same as the new 8x10"s, and back in the '70s they were about as good as it got, so it was simply a case of "shutting up and playing your guitar"!

[quote name='cheddatom' post='168465' date='Apr 2 2008, 02:48 PM']I can't see the point in buying an amp that colours your tone that much. I have pedals to colour my sound, and amps to amplify it.[/quote]

Although its pretty easy enough to make a colourless amp it's a lot harder (and thus more expensive) to make a cab even vaguely uncoloured, so it makes economic (and logical sense) to buy a cab with a colouration you like rather than one without any colour if you then have to use something else to add the missing colouration. But I know I'd rather have a rig that amplifies my bass cleanly and then let my pickup settings and my playing add the tonal colours required.

Alex