Jools Holland being live and Estelle's bassist with mad skillz

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='169011' date='Apr 3 2008, 12:18 PM']Rhythmically the first Estelle song was a mess cos bass chops was not playing in time with the drums[/quote]
[quote name='paul, the' post='169126' date='Apr 3 2008, 02:12 PM']Not a very good bassist in the first, but [b]much[/b] better in the second song. So perhaps a case of nerves as the opening act. I can see the Khumalo comparison in the second song (a million miles away in the first).[/quote]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='169016' date='Apr 3 2008, 12:26 PM']Do you want to qualify that statement? I've been listening to bass players closely for 35 years, I have played professionally for 20 and I teach to degree standard, which has led me to assess bass players abilities for 10 years, I think your assessment is slightly off the mark. His time is good, he locks with the kit which I think was on a click, the only justifiable criticism to my mind is he overplays.
Jake[/quote]

Well I'm not the only one who noticed. Someone was out of time and the song did not come together until the last verse when it started to swing. If it was not the bass who was overplaying like mad then who was it?

[jakenewmanbass]

I agreed in earlier posts that he overplayed, what I thought was a little unfair was your "f*** all groove" comment.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='169370' date='Apr 3 2008, 07:36 PM']I agreed in earlier posts that he overplayed, what I thought was a little unfair was your "f*** all groove" comment.[/quote]
Thats how I describe guys that get so carried away with their chops they forget the first commandment of bass - [b]listen to the drummer[/b]

Edited April 3, 2008 by bass_ferret

[steve-soar]

Estelle's band totally over played, totally. I went to see India Ari thinking that the gig would be better than the albums but the same thing happened, completely devoid of groove too many fills, too flashy, no groove, and she had shaved her head.

[jakenewmanbass]

Its a rule I agree with myself and try and abide by, but the guy has good time and to me thats recognisable whether I like it or not (which as I've said I don't, much) I credit him with that ability.
And the reason I'm carrying this on is that I feel its very easy to snipe from a forum, the guy got the gig and he's doing a job.
So credit where credits due... no?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='169386' date='Apr 3 2008, 07:56 PM']Estelle's band totally over played, totally. I went to see India Ari thinking that the gig would be better than the albums but the same thing happened, completely devoid of groove too many fills, too flashy, no groove, and she had shaved her head.[/quote]
I'm sad to say I felt the same thing was true of a Stevie Wonder live thing I heard recently, and until then I'd always felt his band avoided it.
Some of the Live Stevie stuff grooves so well.

[lowdown]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='169376' date='Apr 3 2008, 07:44 PM']Thats how I describe guys that get so carried away with their chops they forget the first commandment of bass - [b]listen to the drummer[/b][/quote]

I Think the first Commandment of Bass is Listen....Full Stop.!
It always amazes me the amount of guys who think it is all about chops and showing off..
Thats why the top guys end up at the top...They Listen..


Garry

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='lowdown' post='169399' date='Apr 3 2008, 08:06 PM']I Think the first Commandment of Bass is Listen....Full Stop.![/quote]
And the rest of the band for that matter.

[lowdown]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='169401' date='Apr 3 2008, 08:08 PM']And the rest of the band for that matter.[/quote]

You just beat me to that one...

Garry

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='lowdown' post='169399' date='Apr 3 2008, 08:06 PM']I Think the first Commandment of Bass is Listen....Full Stop.!
It always amazes me the amount of guys who think it is all about chops and showing off..
Thats why the top guys end up at the top...They Listen..


Garry[/quote]
Cant argue with that.
Playing the chops and keeping the beat is one thing, playing the chops and losing the beat is something else entirely.
Still the guy was on telly having fun, cant disagree with that either - but I wonder if she has seen the VT and sacked him.

[Gwilym]

the first thing that sprang to my mind when I saw it was that the whole song was a bit overplayed and messy. it certainly did not sound tight to me.

i enjoyed the song but am not familiar with it, and it seemed to me that they were playing it at a much faster tempo than what I would have thought was the \"optimal\" tempo for the song. was it much faster that the recorded version?

i think then that because everyone (probably) still tried to play all the same notes as they would have at a more moderate tempo, but at that speed there was just less space, and it came out sounding messy and groove-less.

just watched it on youtube (after I wrote the above) - it sounds a bit more relaxed, and the arrangement is far less busy... which is a good thing IMO

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-ACCeo9v0s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-ACCeo9v0s[/url]

[Cantdosleepy]

So no love at all for Black Kids, then? The Cure meets Go Team! Yes!!!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='169484' date='Apr 3 2008, 10:15 PM']the first thing that sprang to my mind when I saw it was that the whole song was a bit overplayed and messy. it certainly did not sound tight to me.

i enjoyed the song but am not familiar with it, and it seemed to me that they were playing it at a much faster tempo than what I would have thought was the \"optimal\" tempo for the song. was it much faster that the recorded version?

[/quote]

The bass playing is a hell of a lot more solid on the recording, for sure. There's a nice funky Bernard Edwards-type groove going on there, I don't understand why would anyone want to change that.

[bass_ferret]

Wogan played the song this morning and the recording has a Jamiroquai feel with the bass really low in the mix. Sounds much better but the bass should be higher.

What I dont understand with all this raving about the guys chops is how few of you noticed he was out of time and losing the beat.

[chardbass]

For a while it's been the afro-american gospel-influenced musicians who have been nailing it for me.
Some do it better than others and even the best can overplay. (Andrew Gouche got slated a while back for overplaying as MD on an awards show)
Usually it is the drummer who does the OTT fills across the bar etc- I personally love it but this bass performance wasn't the best although I know what he was aiming for.

[tauzero]

What I don't understand with all this going on about his chops is that no-one seems to have noticed that the songs were utter, utter sh*te. What f***ing depressingly bad music there was for almost the entirety of the Friday night programme. James Taylor - great. Mike Trovey (?) - didn't know when to stop developing a theme and move on to the next one. Only Ones - crap performance of pretty decent material (the guitarist was particularly bad). Black Kids were like Waterboys colliding with Human League rather messily. Adele - Vicki Pollard. Estelle - anonymous formulaic crap.

[Soulfinger]

[quote name='tauzero' post='170085' date='Apr 5 2008, 01:35 AM']What I don't understand with all this going on about his chops is that no-one seems to have noticed that the songs were utter, utter sh*te. (...) Estelle - anonymous formulaic crap.[/quote]
A huge + 1 from me.

I can´t watch the BBC program as I´m not in the UK, but two of Estelle´s songs from that show are on Youtube now.

Uargh. What a waste of time.

As for the bass player, I could hardly hear him. Crappy middly burpy sound that got lost in the mix. I´m sure he can play but I don´t care.

[SJA]

I thought for a moment that it was Jools playing piano with James Taylor, and he was playing surprisingly tastefully for a change, but I was mistaken.

I liked the second Black kids song, but don't like the whiney singer at all.

does that Adele "Hometown" song remind anyone else of the Cadbury's flake ad music?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='SJA' post='170218' date='Apr 5 2008, 12:47 PM']I thought for a moment that it was Jools playing piano with James Taylor, and he was playing surprisingly tastefully for a change, but I was mistaken.[/quote]
Nah that would be Larry Goldings, one of the celebrated jazz pianist/organists of the modern era. Which should go to show that jazz players can do other things, usually very well. He is indeed a very tasteful player.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='tauzero' post='170085' date='Apr 5 2008, 12:35 AM']What I don't understand with all this going on about his chops is that no-one seems to have noticed that the songs were utter, utter sh*te. What f***ing depressingly bad music there was for almost the entirety of the Friday night programme. James Taylor - great. Mike Trovey (?) - didn't know when to stop developing a theme and move on to the next one. Only Ones - crap performance of pretty decent material (the guitarist was particularly bad). Black Kids were like Waterboys colliding with Human League rather messily. Adele - Vicki Pollard. Estelle - anonymous formulaic crap.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly. Generic, manufactured tripe and embarassing, tragic old sods. Wish I'd watched the Tuesday show, it would have been over quicker (but I was rehearsing! ).

It's funny, but I suppose understandable, that on a muso forum like this one, the interest & debate concerns the [i]playing[/i] rather than the [i]music[/i] - which to my ears was slop-shovelling tedium from all concerned. Most of the last series of [i]Later[/i] struck me this way, & it's sad that this seems to be the series' blueprint - a few flavour-of-the-moment chart botherers & NME darlings, a "heritage" act & one of Jools' R&B mates for him to jam with.

I expect I'll still watch it every week anyway, tho.

Jon.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='170260' date='Apr 5 2008, 02:14 PM']It's funny, but I suppose understandable, that on a muso forum like this one, the interest & debate concerns the [i]playing[/i] rather than the [i]music[/i] -

Jon.[/quote]

Surely you agree that specialists are entitled to discuss specifics, on a site for specialists, its not like we are asking the public to read through reams of basschattery.
The only other thing I would say is that the playing [i]is[/i] the music.

Edited April 5, 2008 by jakesbass

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='169557' date='Apr 4 2008, 12:32 AM']So no love at all for Black Kids, then? The Cure meets Go Team! Yes!!![/quote]
I thought they were terrible. Poor songs and shouty vocals. Just like the Go Team!

[chardbass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='170260' date='Apr 5 2008, 02:14 PM']it's sad that this seems to be the series' blueprint - a few flavour-of-the-moment chart botherers & NME darlings, a "heritage" act & one of Jools' R&B mates for him to jam with[/quote]



Spot on!

Each to their own but The Only Ones seemed like a waste of airtime- bad pub band IMO

Edited April 5, 2008 by chardbass

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='169557' date='Apr 4 2008, 12:32 AM']So no love at all for Black Kids, then? The Cure meets Go Team! Yes!!![/quote]
That's a perfect description!

They were Ok; not great... I love the Go Team though Mrs Silverfoxnik worked for The Cure for years, so I'd best not say anything there...

Watched it all again last night and on reflection, it wasn't a great show. Having said that, though Later & Jools may have their critics, the show has had some great artistes on and some great performances over the years and it's still promoting live music, which is a very important thing IMHO.

So I'm not knocking it...

[Bassassin]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='170261' date='Apr 5 2008, 02:19 PM']Surely you agree that specialists are entitled to discuss specifics, on a site for specialists, its not like we are asking the public to read through reams of basschattery.
The only other thing I would say is that the playing [i]is[/i] the music.[/quote]

Well, of course - that's why I said it's understandable.

As far as your second point's concerned - that's an interesting discussion in itself. I think my perspective would be that the [i]song[/i] is the music, and it's the playing which makes or breaks the song. Using the show's examples, the Only Ones performed their own material badly - reducing songs which are regarded by some as classics of their era to cringeworthy rubbish. Estelle's bassist arguably compromised his singer & band's performance with unnecessary & inappropriate showboating.

I could be bitchy & suggest that Adele's performance demonstrated the idea that technical ability & tasteful playing cannot raise production-line stage school me-too blandness above what it actually is. But I won't.

J.