Mr. Foxen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1326224524' post='1494132'] I would also expect to see an 'aftermarket' business or two appear; making solid state devices with a standard valve bases for direct replacement of commonly used music valves... [/quote] That has already been done. Saw linked on Talkbass. People pay £100+ each for valves now, being £50 each in future won't stop people buying them. Might stop them being idiots with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1326227648' post='1494186'] IAn far as I'm aware the biggest application of Neodymium is in electric servo motors, and with electric cars bound to happen the demand is not going to drop, unless superseded by something else. [/quote] Yep it's certainly used in those, and the materials were chosen as part of the design. Take away that material and all that happens is that someone will go back to the drawing board (do we still have drawing boards? ) and find a way of using a different material in it's place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1326205186' post='1493747'] Rare earths aren't rare at all, and most of the world's supply is outside of China. It's only rare earth mining and manufacturing that's concentrated mainly in China, a situation that is changing by the day. The current neo shortage won't last. Tubes OTOH are going away, it's just a matter of time. Producing them without destroying the environment is just too expensive, and when the Russians and Chinese finally wake up, smell the coffee and institute safe manufacturing regulations tubes will be history. [/quote] So what will happens then niche production for the boutique valve market?? skez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 magnets? valves? 200 years from now electrified music might be a quaint 20th and early 21st century fad back when the power came out the walls for next to nothing. I'm going to be prepared, I'm learning folk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1326229472' post='1494244'] magnets? valves? 200 years from now electrified music might be a quaint 20th and early 21st century fad back when the power came out the walls for next to nothing. I'm going to be prepared, I'm learning folk [/quote] Excellent We can all sit around the fire singing songs and throwing an occasional Warwick or Fender on it to keep warm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='Skezza' timestamp='1326229091' post='1494231'] So what will happens then niche production for the boutique valve market?? skez [/quote] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl-QMuUQhVM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1326227648' post='1494186'] I think some here said in another thread, some time ago, that had Neo not been available then ceramic magnets would have been developed to meet almost the same performance by now anyway. [/quote]They were developed and have been in use since the 1970s. The advantage to neo is that it can do the same thing with both less weight and lower cost. The cost benefit has been largely lost, but not completely. The Eminence 3015LF still holds a slight price advantage over the typical ceramic equivalent, such as the B&C 15TBX100, at least on this side of the pond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cytania Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Thanks for the 'How A Valve Is Made' video, absolutely fascinating, well worth viewing Part 2 as well as you get sight of Monsieur Valvemaker himself. At first I thought 'I can do that', but the amount of big kit starts to mount up as things go on. I expect to see Monty Don presenting valve making on a future 'Mastercrafts' programme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='umph' timestamp='1326195986' post='1493512'] cryo treatment is snake oil. [/quote] Not entirely. Some years back when I was much more active building amps we had a debate about this on 18watt.com. I had a few pairs of valves sitting around and decided to experiment using liquid nitrogen that was available at work. The first valves I tried were some Sovtek 6L6s which were a bit dull sounding. Both valves from the pair sounded similar, so I marked one up and treated it, first freezing to -80'c, the immersing in LN2 for a couple of days in a small volume dewar vessel, which was allowed to run dry and gradually warm up (slow warming is part of the annealing process). To test whether the difference was real or not I had my wife swap various valves around in a single ended amp I'd made while I was out of the room, and to make it a little more fun, we included an EL34 and a 6CA7 too, along with the pair of 6L6s. In each case I was able to identify which valve was which, and differentiate the cryo treated 6L6 from the other as well as the EL34 and 6CA7. What difference did it make? In each case, and with every valve I treated afterward, it made the valve a bit brighter and a bit more open, and the effect remained after several hours of use. Some valves were affected more than others, with the biggest difference in the 6L6s and EL34s I tried, very little difference in some Ei EL84s, National 12AT7s and Sovtek 12AX7s. IMO the value is in brightening a dull valve, if that is a problem for you, but it will not make a modern valve sound like a NOS Mullard contrary to some claims. Larger power valves seemed to benefit more than small valves. One other thing was interesting: none of the nay-sayers were willing to accept that a difference was possible, and none of the guys in the UK were willing to take part in a blind controlled study where they tried valves before (to check a pair sounded the same) sent them to me for treatment & I sent them back for re-testing. edit for spelling. Edited January 11, 2012 by Ancient Mariner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 And what did your measurements reveal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1326299438' post='1495148'] And what did your measurements reveal? [/quote] That he could hear a difference? I'd like to know if I could. I know the whooping, merry women at the various dos we play at would struggle to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1326231387' post='1494294'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl-QMuUQhVM[/media] [/quote] Didn't understand any of this.... It's all in French! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umph Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='Ancient Mariner' timestamp='1326297974' post='1495108'] Not entirely. Some years back when I was much more active building amps we had a debate about this on 18watt.com. I had a few pairs of valves sitting around and decided to experiment using liquid nitrogen that was available at work. The first valves I tried were some Sovtek 6L6s which were a bit dull sounding. Both valves from the pair sounded similar, so I marked one up and treated it, first freezing to -80'c, the immersing in LN2 for a couple of days in a small volume dewar vessel, which was allowed to run dry and gradually warm up (slow warming is part of the annealing process). To test whether the difference was real or not I had my wife swap various valves around in a single ended amp I'd made while I was out of the room, and to make it a little more fun, we included an EL34 and a 6CA7 too, along with the pair of 6L6s. In each case I was able to identify which valve was which, and differentiate the cryo treated 6L6 from the other as well as the EL34 and 6CA7. What difference did it make? In each case, and with every valve I treated afterward, it made the valve a bit brighter and a bit more open, and the effect remained after several hours of use. Some valves were affected more than others, with the biggest difference in the 6L6s and EL34s I tried, very little difference in some Ei EL84s, National 12AT7s and Sovtek 12AX7s. IMO the value is in brightening a dull valve, if that is a problem for you, but it will not make a modern valve sound like a NOS Mullard contrary to some claims. Larger power valves seemed to benefit more than small valves. One other thing was interesting: none of the nay-sayers were willing to accept that a difference was possible, and none of the guys in the UK were willing to take part in a blind controlled study where they tried valves before (to check a pair sounded the same) sent them to me for treatment & I sent them back for re-testing. edit for spelling. [/quote] Did you do any measurements with gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 A brightometer and a openoscope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1326300193' post='1495160'] I know the whooping, merry women at the various dos we play at would struggle to tell. [/quote] I don't know about that. Did a club gig last week and this gorgeous blonde came up to me and said 'Your amp sounded great. I bet you've had your valves cryogenically treated, haven't you?' I replied, 'No, I haven't, but my leads are 99.9% pure OFC.' She nodded knowingly and took my arm. Edited January 11, 2012 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Was it JoeGarcia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='umph' timestamp='1326301361' post='1495182'] Did you do any measurements with gear? [/quote] Edited January 11, 2012 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikhay77 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Can't see valve production stopping in my lifetime!Only when musicians aren't needed anymore. The day it happens is the day Fender stop making Strats,Jazzes and P's,well IMO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='mikhay77' timestamp='1326318605' post='1495525'] Can't see valve production stopping in my lifetime!Only when musicians aren't needed anymore. The day it happens is the day Fender stop making Strats,Jazzes and P's,well IMO! [/quote]Tried buying Kodachrome lately? How about a typewriter? Buggy whip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Still a good market for certain typewriters, the whole steampunk thing. It is indulgent luxury sure, but so is music for the most part. In fact,t here are dozens of pages of results for 'typewriter' in google shopping, so just cause some people haven't looked, doesn't mean they aren't there to buy. Edited January 11, 2012 by Mr. Foxen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1326321907' post='1495593'] Tried buying Kodachrome lately? How about a typewriter? Buggy whip? [/quote] http://www.bullwhip.org/faq/vendors.html that could help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1326321907' post='1495593'] Tried buying Kodachrome lately? [/quote] Ah, Kodachrome. RIP. I've got boxes of 35mm kodachrome slides that I shot in the late 70s onwards. What amazes me today is how I managed to use something as slow as 25 ASA. Happy days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1326324640' post='1495648'] Ah, Kodachrome. RIP. I've got boxes of 35mm kodachrome slides that I shot in the late 70s onwards. What amazes me today is how I managed to use something as slow as 25 ASA. Happy days. [/quote] Used to use that quite a lot may years ago but eventually drifted over to Ektachrome for rapid processing and faster speeds. As a piece of useless trivia, Kodachrome was actually invented by two musicians... those damn b*ggers get everywhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='mikhay77' timestamp='1326318605' post='1495525'] ....Can't see valve production stopping in my lifetime!Only when musicians aren't needed anymore.... [/quote] [size=4]If valve production depended on musicians then it would have stopped 30 years ago!![/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Valves are more obsolete for hifi that they are for MI, and there is still a market there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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