How Did You Train Your Drummer?

[EdwardHimself]

There is only one way to settle this argument:

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-polishing-a-turd.html

[discreet]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1326460420' post='1497476']
There is only one way to settle this argument: [url="http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-polishing-a-turd.html"]http://dsc.discovery...ing-a-turd.html[/url]
[/quote]

Busted! You [i]can [/i]polish a turd!

[mrdreadful]

Ooh yeah, I forgot about that!

[bremen]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1326307107' post='1495284']
A very famous musician (I wont name drop) once said to me "You can't polish a turd".
[/quote]

Bollocks.

You just have to freeze it first.

[Austin7]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1326401965' post='1496876']
Better yet is to find that rare drummer that can provide the steady, reliable metronome when required, but can also deliberately be flexible with the tempo and communicate what's going on at the time. E.G. Wind Cries Mary by Jimi H, with fluctuating tempo for 'feel'.

[media]http://youtu.be/DaKHSeLErMg[/media]
[/quote]

True enough, the song isn't the hardest in the world. Nevertheless, Jimi brought "The Wind Cries Mary" into the studio; Mitch and Noel had 20 minutes to learn AND record the song.

[Bassistclem]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1326294368' post='1495047']
Remove most of his drums and go back to basics. Snare, hi-hat, bass drum and couple of cymbals - its all you need to lay a groove. I think a click will only train him/her to play with a click.

Also get him/her off the drums and just do some clapping to slow stuff. Really helps to develop a sense of timing.
[/quote]

+1 to this, hide the toms for now!

[BILL POSTERS]

[attachment=97347:TurdPolish.jpg]

,,,,,

[Davo-London]

A lot of negativity here in this post.

I'm a drummer and basically you go through stages of learning. Firstly you learn basic grooves and then try a fill and lose the timing. Then there's the thinking you're better than you are as you can play along to any track. Then you record yourself and realise there's a long long road ahead of you. Then you play with other musicians and realise this is a lot trickier than you thought. Then you start to get the feel of some track and someone says you're playing it too slow or vice versa. And then you learn to practice with a click track. And you get proficient at that. But this doesn't help you play with live musicians of varying ability. And so it goes on.


Truly there is no substitute for putting in the years of playing. I've been playing 6-7 years and I've pretty well done all of the above. I've been a bass player for 35 years and I find the drums far more difficult to master. You can become a competent bassist in a few years but to become a quality drummer takes longer IMHO. The responsibility of the drummer is greater too. Setting and keeping the tempo spot-on is genuinely difficult.

The hardest songs are the slowest. Keeping accurate tempo at 60 bpm or even 55 bpm for a remark you made by Weather Report is truly mind numbingly hard.

So folks, there's a lot of superior beings on this forum doing a lot of drummer-bashing. Try it yourself if you think it's easy. I'm telling you from the heart it isn't. There is so much to learn.

So, I always have time for musicians that practice and are serious about there instrument as you know in time they will probably get there. If they don't practice then I lose interest. That's my arbiter.

Peace
Davo

[Austin7]

[quote name='Davo-London' timestamp='1326665767' post='1500304']
A lot of negativity here in this post.

I'm a drummer and basically you go through stages of learning. Firstly you learn basic grooves and then try a fill and lose the timing. Then there's the thinking you're better than you are as you can play along to any track. Then you record yourself and realise there's a long long road ahead of you. Then you play with other musicians and realise this is a lot trickier than you thought. Then you start to get the feel of some track and someone says you're playing it too slow or vice versa. And then you learn to practice with a click track. And you get proficient at that. But this doesn't help you play with live musicians of varying ability. And so it goes on.


Truly there is no substitute for putting in the years of playing. I've been playing 6-7 years and I've pretty well done all of the above. I've been a bass player for 35 years and I find the drums far more difficult to master. You can become a competent bassist in a few years but to become a quality drummer takes longer IMHO. The responsibility of the drummer is greater too. Setting and keeping the tempo spot-on is genuinely difficult.

The hardest songs are the slowest. Keeping accurate tempo at 60 bpm or even 55 bpm for a remark you made by Weather Report is truly mind numbingly hard.

So folks, there's a lot of superior beings on this forum doing a lot of drummer-bashing. Try it yourself if you think it's easy. I'm telling you from the heart it isn't. There is so much to learn.

So, I always have time for musicians that practice and are serious about there instrument as you know in time they will probably get there. If they don't practice then I lose interest. That's my arbiter.

Peace
Davo
[/quote]

There may be justification for the negativity. I was in a band for many years. I took a very long break and got involved again. In both instances, it was drummers that were the problems. I could give countless examples of things that happened. Drummers quitting for no reason, drummers having a problem with meter, not showing up for practices, wanting to get paid more than the other band members, etc. Does this mean drummers are not important? Definitely not. Drumming is the foundation of the music. No matter how good the other members of the band are, if the drums don't sound good, you're screwed. This is especially important for recordings, in my opinion.

Right now I'm observing a situation in which a close friend who is a guitarist is having to go through similar drummer problems. The guitarist is very talented and so is the bassist. They want a 3-piece, but simply can't find a drummer who will pull his weight. They are so talented that I know eventually they'll find someone, but the wait is getting to be quite draining. I don't look at this as superiority at all. That isn't the issue. It wasn't the issue for me and it isn't the issue for my friend's band. In fact, they're humble people who are very serious about music.

As a bit of clarification, I might add that all in all the bands I've been in, we were always able to find a way to solve our drummer problems even if they were numerous. In my friend's case, however, I have truly marveled at how bad some of the drummer problems have been that they've had. The point is there is a difference between actually being anti-drummer and being weary from suffering through so many problems with drummers.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Austin7

[janmaat]

Well spoken Davo.

I believe you can always only blame yourself - if you have to blame the people you hang out with, it's you to blame again.

Apart from that, it seems there are always two roads to solution of a problem:

one is technology, the other one practise, and in most cases, you have to consider them both.

Get him a metronome and get him to practise - if he refuses any of the two, change your line-up.

[Davo-London]

Having said my piece. Having a good drummer makes the world of difference and it is worth searching for that illusive drummer.

Good luck. In my view, and I'm looking for a drummer for a covers band (where I play bass), I would be looking for someone with at least 10 years playing behind them. May seem a weird requirement but this is something I've noticed. Even playing the simplest of grooves an experienced player will always sound better.

Cheers
Davo

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Davo-London' timestamp='1326665767' post='1500304']So folks, there's a lot of superior beings on this forum doing a lot of drummer-bashing. Try it yourself if you think it's easy. I'm telling you from the heart it isn't. There is so much to learn. So, I always have time for musicians that practice and are serious about there instrument as you know in time they will probably get there. If they don't practice then I lose interest. That's my arbiter. Peace Davo [/quote]

This. As someone who plays the drums and is not a complete idiot I accept that there is bound to be a bit of banter about drummers with this being a bass forum but I think some people are taking it a bit far some times. It is extremely difficult to get yourself through a full set of music with the stress it puts on your forearms but you're also using all 4 limbs that you have to co-ordinate and you have to keep time as well. It's certainly far from easy. It's something that takes years of practice before you can even play to a reasonable level. That is why decent drummers are so difficult to find unfortunately. Most people just give up after not very long.

Edited January 16, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[TimR]

I think it's true when they say you should always play with musicians who are as good or better than you are.

I'm all for bringing on new musicians but if you're in a band of guys who've all been playing for years and who can pick up a tune in one night or even jam straight from chord charts, then you're going to need a drummer of the same calibre. Are you really going to spend weeks polishing a song just because one of you isn't up to scratch. It can become soul destroying and make you hate learning new material and limit the styles of music you play.

The thread could equally be about guitarists or singers.

Its always interesting to record yourself and see how well you keep time without the drummer. I played for years with a drummer who followed my timing but trod all over my basslines with his double bass drum pedal. If I stopped playing he sped up and I felt I was constantly putting the brakes on. It's very tiring.

It's basic supply and demand.

[guildbass]

My experience is that people who can't keep time can't hear the problem when it's played back to them.

Basically we all need to exercise our timing muscle and no-one in a band should be a timekeeper...everyone's internal clocks should be in synch...And [i]everyone[/i] includes the audience. the difference between a good band and a 'pub' band (you know what I mean...) is that the band are rock solid on timing and the audience lock off to the band. If the band lose it because they are 'following' one member, then the audience gets subconsciously distressed...Just like when your drummer is sh*t and everything feels crowded and unpleasant on stage...

The answer is, as everyone has said, is for everyone (but especially the drummer) to use a metronome ALL THE TIME during practice and to listen to it (at the appropriate tempo) before the song. Even dreadful drummers can hold timing for a gig after that.

Sadly, on the local band scene, there are a heck of a lot of drum kit owners but i reckon less than 1 in 20 are musicians.

Timing is everything...I've seen a Matebele guy tap two sticks together with such an impeccable sense of timing that you wanted to dance....In other words everything, kit, licks, tricks, pedals...all of it, is simply icing on the timing cake.

If he can't keep time he's pulling everyone down. get him some phones and a metronome and tell him everyone else needs the help so he's your 'rock'...or some such bollocks.

[Austin7]

^
Excellent post

[guildbass]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1326714889' post='1500779']
This. As someone who plays the drums and is not a complete idiot I accept that there is bound to be a bit of banter about drummers with this being a bass forum but I think some people are taking it a bit far some times. It is extremely difficult to get yourself through a full set of music with the stress it puts on your forearms but you're also using all 4 limbs that you have to co-ordinate and you have to keep time as well. It's certainly far from easy. It's something that takes years of practice before you can even play to a reasonable level. That is why decent drummers are so difficult to find unfortunately. Most people just give up after not very long.
[/quote]

i disagree. One of the best drummers I played with was a guitarist. He could use a simple 4 piece kit. nothing fancy, no histrionics, he simply provided a decent back beat...But because he was a musician first, he had good timing.

if you are working so hard you can't keep time, you're doing to much. timing first, paradiddles second....Your audience will love you for it!

[guildbass]

[quote name='Austin7' timestamp='1326751739' post='1501631']
^
Excellent post
[/quote]

Thanks...But it's a good job I've got my flame-proof pants on though!

Seriously though, I think there are three problems with drummers. the first is that they all aspire to giant kits so they can play like Niel Peart (Rush)...And you need to be as good as him to make a big kit work,
secondly, every guy who wants to be in a band to get laid and can tap a glass with his Bic lighter in the pub thinks being a drummer is the easy route to multitudes of panty hampsters...and a full-on drum kit is one of the hardest instruments to master....
...and thirdly, seriously, how many drummers actually practice... I'll tell you...The ones who can keep time...Because there are very few places you can set a big kit up and go there daily for an hour or so...the guys that have a kit set up are the ones who are adequate to brilliant...

i do an hour a day on 'phones, with a metronome and I suspect most serious muso's do that or more....I certainly couldn't keep properly good time if I just played once a week...I know guys who could, but I have to work at it... And people think I have good timing......

[guildbass]

[quote name='BRANCINI' timestamp='1326564667' post='1498971']
[attachment=97347:TurdPolish.jpg]

,,,,,
[/quote]
Just saw that...Haha...That's gone off to the guitarist!

[scalpy]

We train ours with raw meat.

[Austin7]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326752549' post='1501643']
Thanks...But it's a good job I've got my flame-proof pants on though!

Seriously though, I think there are three problems with drummers. the first is that they all aspire to giant kits so they can play like Niel Peart (Rush)...And you need to be as good as him to make a big kit work,
secondly, every guy who wants to be in a band to get laid and can tap a glass with his Bic lighter in the pub thinks being a drummer is the easy route to multitudes of panty hampsters...and a full-on drum kit is one of the hardest instruments to master....
...and thirdly, seriously, how many drummers actually practice... I'll tell you...The ones who can keep time...Because there are very few places you can set a big kit up and go there daily for an hour or so...the guys that have a kit set up are the ones who are adequate to brilliant...

i do an hour a day on 'phones, with a metronome and I suspect most serious muso's do that or more....I certainly couldn't keep properly good time if I just played once a week...I know guys who could, but I have to work at it... And people think I have good timing......
[/quote]

At least a person doesn't need to put on a combat helmet and full battle gear to post here, though. Earlier today, I was posting on a bass message board I had been posting on since 2005. Suddenly, I reached my breaking point. It was the last straw for me and one obnoxious, totally unnecessary response too many for me. So, it was goodbye to the bass message board whose abbreviation sounds like a lung disease. If flame-proof pants are necessary here, that still seems much better than the alternative.

[guildbass]

[quote name='Davo-London' timestamp='1326665767' post='1500304']
A lot of negativity here in this post.

I'm a drummer and basically you go through stages of learning. Firstly you learn basic grooves and then try a fill and lose the timing. Then there's the thinking you're better than you are as you can play along to any track. Then you record yourself and realise there's a long long road ahead of you. Then you play with other musicians and realise this is a lot trickier than you thought. Then you start to get the feel of some track and someone says you're playing it too slow or vice versa. And then you learn to practice with a click track. And you get proficient at that.

[i] But this doesn't help you play with live musicians of varying ability.[/i] .

Peace
Davo
[/quote]

I used to think the same... i spent years playing bass with songwriting guitarists who had bugger all sense of timing and i learnt to 'read' their timing shifts so they felt happy... Problem was, I was holding [b]them[/b] up but the audience were getting the ragged timing from both of us.
The moment i started to practise with a metronome and (with gritted teeth...literally) held my timing the guitarists started noticing they were going out...And the reason was,....THEIR timing sucked.
It's not anyone's job to move from the beat to follow a band member with poor timing...Lay the law down...If they can't hack it, they get better with a metronome, or they get another job. the second you start to shift to 'stay with' anyone else, you've lost, the rest of the band have lost, and the audience stay at home...

in fact, i think the ONLY way you can play with other musicians is if your timing is impeccable...And that goes for everyone...So the best way to get that precise...Is with a metronome...

[guildbass]

You might have noticed that I think 'timing' is fairly key........Ahem....

[guildbass]

[quote name='Legion' timestamp='1326392204' post='1496692']


The silver lining though is that myself and the singer/guitarist still get on great, still meet weekly and are gaining more and more momentum in writing orignals that we are really happy with and that have some consistent direction. Now, where to find another drummer....
and keys player
and singer

Hmmm. Hard work innit
[/quote]

Well, firstly, don't assume you need one...The rhythm doesn't disappear because you haven't got a guy hitting things behind you...And secondly, consider this....Why do we [b]need [/b]a guy with a drum 'kit'...We don't. there are a myriad ways to make percussive sounds...Listen to 'Everyday' by Buddy Holly, the 'drums' in that song are the producer slapping his trousered legs with his hands...And on at least one other Buddy Holly song the drums are actually a guy playing a cardboard box. I genuinely think a drum kit instantly limits you and instantly channels your sound down some very well worn paths. Rather than look for 'drummers', look for percussionists....

[guildbass]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326752936' post='1501655']
Just saw that...Haha...That's gone off to the guitarist!
[/quote]

Who replied; The phrase goes - "you can't polish a turd". ..... "but you can roll it in glitter".

which bit a little as we were in a Glam rock covers band together in the nineties!

[paul_5]

My current drummer came already "broken in". Occasionally he'll coil one out on the rug, but it's a small price to pay for his great time-keeping and unshakeable groove.