Bankai Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1326295487' post='1495063'] The drummers who speed up are very rare. [/quote] They are far too common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Just a thought...my default playing style is quite syncopated, I listen to a lot of funk and latin stuff and as a result push a lot of beats by a 16th or so. If I do this with some drummers who don't usually play those styles it f*&^s them RIGHT up. But funk drummers have no problem at all. Could your playing style, or someone else that the drummer is trying to lock with, messing him up? Another suggestion, practising with a click will probably be more effective if you do it in the context of recording....listening back to a recording done to a click track can be pretty brutal and speed up the learning a bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's everyone's job to keep time. Not just the drummers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 If he's anything like most of the drummers I've played with then I suspect that he isnt aware of his problem so talking to him about it might make him feel defensive and be counterproductive. If you record your sessions and its obvious that there is a problem then you could suggest that just you and him have some practice time together thats when you could bring a metronome. TBH I've found that with most amateur drummers they're time keeping is good enough until they start playing beyond their ability and doing things such as drum rolls, cymbal crashes and singing ( why do they always want to sing !) so that might be the cause of his problem. But I would keep with him because finding even a half decent drummer is hard work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seashell Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Well my Ex was a drummer and I never managed to train him to do anything properly! Although he could be tempted into something resembling co-operation if provided with food. Especially anything involving large quantities of gravy. (I have to admit he was a sh*t hot drummer though) Edited January 12, 2012 by seashell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdreadful Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Oh noes. I've been fisked. That's me told then. Seriously though Rhys, you'd actually prefer being in a band of virtuoso players who were complete c**ts? Edited January 12, 2012 by mrdreadful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326365890' post='1495984'] Oh noes. I've been fisked. That's me told then. [/quote] Heh, heh. Your contribution to the thread is much appreciated. One can be overly analytical if one is not careful, with the emphasis on the 'anal'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdreadful Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Ta. I'm now imagining people in a studio all glaring at each other while playing their instruments absolutely perfectly because they all know if they make one mistake it'll turn into a fist fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326367029' post='1496017'] Ta. I'm now imagining people in a studio all glaring at each other while playing their instruments absolutely perfectly because they all know if they make one mistake it'll turn into a fist fight. [/quote] I can imagine that being a typical King Crimson rehearsal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Indeed... [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-f0P7-fxUQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-f0P7-fxUQ[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_C Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [url="http://youtu.be/27tI15nfh8k"]http://youtu.be/27tI15nfh8k[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1326307107' post='1495284'] A very famous musician (I wont name drop) once said to me "You can't polish a turd". Sometimes you have to resign to the fact that some folks just don't have 'it'. People come and go in bands for lots of reasons, but you can't do their job for them. [/quote] Agreed, If you try and polish a turd you just make a mess. But I spose it depends to some extent at what level your playing. It can be difficult to find a drummer that you can get on with sometimes. So If you can just find one thats not a complete twatm its worth persevering. Unless he thinks he's great anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1326368147' post='1496043'] I can imagine that being a typical King Crimson rehearsal [/quote]Ooh beat me to it, although I was going to say Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1326290778' post='1494971'] [b]How Did You Train Your Drummer?[/b] OK... A 'friend' of mine is in a 'band', and their 'drummer' is a lovely chap, turns up on time, learns the material, is technically proficient and has a very nice expensive new kit and transport. But he can't keep time. Not even for eight consecutive bars. He's all over the shop. Now the 'band' my 'friend' is in cannot afford the services of a pro drummer and would not want to go down this road particularly, but they are beginning to realise that they can't do their jobs to the best of their ability or even enjoy what they are doing if the drummer is unable to perform the most basic function that is required of him. The bass player in particular is sick of having to play the role of timekeeper and being made to look like a **** at gigs, when as is known, a halfway decent drummer makes all the difference. My friend's question is this: Have you had this problem, and what did you do about it? Can you train a drummer like you can train dogs, kids and spouses, i.e. by using a reward system? Or what? Thank you for reading... my 'friend' and his 'band' are very grateful to you! [/quote] I'm afraid I don't have a very useful response (beyond being sympathetic) but have been in exactly the same situation. Our drummer was a really nice bloke, with some good reasonable kit and transport etc. However, his timing was afwul and much though we hoped it would improve...it never did. We tried all sorts of things to help him along without tactlessly saying "you suck" such as using sequenced in sounds to lock on to etc etc etc. It never seemed to work and in the end it was just killing the energy of our whole set as he dragged the beat terribly and it didnt matter how much I tried to pull him along with the bass he wouldnt respond to anything. Always seemed to be in a world of his own. Towards the end he started losing commitment and making no input at all so I made the call that we sack him and get another (unanimous agreement once I pointed out the problems). After that I had a pro online drummer do a track for us and then the others understood what we had been missing. We set out on our search for a new drummer and struggled like hell. Eventually we found someone completely the opposite who was totally inconsistent, massively overplayed and wouldnt stop telling everyone else how to play their instruments. This turned out to be the final straw (ie excuse because it was too much hard work) for the keys player who left. The silver lining though is that myself and the singer/guitarist still get on great, still meet weekly and are gaining more and more momentum in writing orignals that we are really happy with and that have some consistent direction. Now, where to find another drummer.... and keys player and singer Hmmm. Hard work innit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibody Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've played with a drummer on and off for 20 years. He knows what ~I'm thinking, we have known each other for so long as mates and band mates that put us together and it just works. He plays off me. As with the OP he is a "good" drummer (very kieth moonish, eclectic yet controled) but he used to speed up if he gets "excited". In my case, because I am his "metronome" it gives him the freedom to throw in those moonesque fills whilst relying on me to hold him back. Thats my job, I'm the bass player, I'm part of the Rhythm section so I am performing a Parallel functon to the drummer whilst adding to the sonic texture. I think in these situations you have to excercise a bit of discresion in how you handle things. If you go at it like a bull at a gate like some here have suggested, you are going to loose a drummer and a friend at the same time. Nobody wants to be told they are sh*t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rOB Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1326294877' post='1495055'] However, the best solution is get another drummer who can actually play in time. Harsh but effective. [/quote] Easier said than done IMO. Finding any drummers around here at the moment is hard enough. Let alone drummers who can play. [quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1326297300' post='1495093'] We use pre-recorded loops, samples etc which circumvents the problem, but it does somehow miss that live feel... We ARE currently trying to find a good drummer, so i guess that proves that it's not the ideal solution. Still, I'd rather use pre-recorded drums than have a horribly out of time real drummer. I think part of the problem for me is being so use to recording with a perfectly in-time track, that I find it very hard to play with someone whose timing is not very good... [/quote] How's that going for you? I'm considering looking into that as an option. What gear are you using for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='Nibody' timestamp='1326394171' post='1496724'] I think in these situations you have to excercise a bit of discresion in how you handle things. If you go at it like a bull at a gate like some here have suggested, you are going to loose a drummer and a friend at the same time. Nobody wants to be told they are sh*t. [/quote] Good advice. Kicking him out is not an option (not yet, anyway). I will certainly be tactful. As has been said, just moaning at him would be counter-productive. At tonight's rehearsal he will be presented with a metronome/click device, so it will be interesting to see how he gets on with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Better yet is to find that rare drummer that can provide the steady, reliable metronome when required, but can also deliberately be flexible with the tempo and communicate what's going on at the time. E.G. Wind Cries Mary by Jimi H, with fluctuating tempo for 'feel'. http://youtu.be/DaKHSeLErMg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdreadful Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 "You can't polish a turd" = "It's too much effort lol first world problems" Just saying. Rebuilt two crappy guitars and got told the same thing both times. Ended up with two pretty damn awesome guitars (for a given value of awesome, one does still need a new neck ideally). It's simply a matter of bothering to put a bit of effort in. And because I know some wag will say it: yes, it [i]is[/i] his responsibility to do the actual improvement, but why should everyone else sit back and watch when they could be encouraging and helping him? Turns out people respond very well to help and positive reinforcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHUFC BASS Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Best thing to do first is record him and let him hear how out of time he is. If he doesn't acknowledge he's out of time when he hears himself, he'll never get it and no amount of click track will get him in time. It certainly exposes any flaws in your playing when you record yourself - not just drums, but ALL instruments. Its a good way to break the news to him too that he's out of time instead of pointing the finger and saying basically you need to sort your life out. Edited January 13, 2012 by WHUFC BASS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326446177' post='1497218'] "You can't polish a turd" = "It's too much effort lol first world problems" Just saying. Rebuilt two crappy guitars and got told the same thing both times. Ended up with two pretty damn awesome guitars (for a given value of awesome, one does still need a new neck ideally). It's simply a matter of bothering to put a bit of effort in. And because I know some wag will say it: yes, it [i]is[/i] his responsibility to do the actual improvement, but why should everyone else sit back and watch when they could be encouraging and helping him? Turns out people respond very well to help and positive reinforcement. [/quote] QFA - Long as its handled right, otherwise you could embarrass him. Push him into a corner and he might dig his heels in. Some People, myself included, sometimes find it hard to be 'managed' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) After all my moaning... at last night's rehearsal, drummer was pretty damn good. In fact, everyone was. We tried out a new track for the first time and everyone was really on it. He got on very well with the click generator. Turns out he was not confident about remembering the actual tempi of the songs from the off, so now he has a quick listen to the click first, counts in, and we're away. Come to think of it, I couldn't accurately come up with the bpm of any track off the top of my head, even if I knew what the actual bpm number was, something I had not considered... he's well up for it though, all credit to him - he's getting a set of V Drums next week for home so he can play along with the material at leisure. Thanks for all your responses and opinions - very useful... and interesting! Think he'll be OK. If it were me I would probably have a big shout at everyone, a huge sulk for about three months, deliberately play badly, then post turds through everyone's letterboxes, so I reckon it's a bit of a result, really. Thanks again! Edited January 13, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1326458096' post='1497425'] Thanks for all your responses and opinions - very useful... and interesting! Think he'll be OK. If it were me I would probably have a big shout at everyone, a huge sulk for about three months, deliberately play badly, [b][i]then post turds through everyone's letterboxes,[/i][/b] so I reckon it's a bit of a result, really. Thanks again! [/quote] With a tin of Brasso and a cloth of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdreadful Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 In your faces grumpy naysayers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='BRANCINI' timestamp='1326458578' post='1497439'] With a tin of Brasso and a cloth of course. [/quote] What d'you think I'm like? The turds would be in sealed envelopes, obviously. Edited January 13, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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