How Did You Train Your Drummer?

[Austin7]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326754048' post='1501669']
I used to think the same... i spent years playing bass with songwriting guitarists who had bugger all sense of timing and i learnt to 'read' their timing shifts so they felt happy... Problem was, I was holding [b]them[/b] up but the audience were getting the ragged timing from both of us.
The moment i started to practise with a metronome and (with gritted teeth...literally) held my timing the guitarists started noticing they were going out...And the reason was,....THEIR timing sucked.
It's not anyone's job to move from the beat to follow a band member with poor timing...Lay the law down...If they can't hack it, they get better with a metronome, or they get another job. the second you start to shift to 'stay with' anyone else, you've lost, the rest of the band have lost, and the audience stay at home...

in fact, i think the ONLY way you can play with other musicians is if your timing is impeccable...And that goes for everyone...So the best way to get that precise...Is with a metronome...
[/quote]

Impeccable timing for all the musicians involved; I agree. The way you put it reminds me very much of the drummer down the street I used to be in a band with.

[guildbass]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1326762808' post='1501757']
My current drummer came already "broken in". Occasionally he'll coil one out on the rug, but it's a small price to pay for his great time-keeping and unshakeable groove.
[/quote]

Nice... They're always good like that...I also find as they get older, pedigree drummers can develop faults whereas the ones who can't lay claim to parents tend to remain faithful. We had one who totally lost his hip...He started buying Showaddywaddy records....

[Davo-London]

The OP asked: [i]Have you had this problem, and what did you do about it? Can you train a drummer like you can train dogs, kids and spouses, i.e. by using a reward system? Or what?[/i]

Actually re-reading this, the OP question is rather drummer-bashing, so it’s not surprising what has unfolded.

Shame
Davo

[guildbass]

All tongue in cheek!...The very fact that good drummers are nigh on impossible to find is an indication of how highly they are regarded and how important they are to everyone!

As bass players we are all used to piss taking comments from every other bugger in the band so we make fun in a sense almost ironically!

[Austin7]

When it comes to music, it's doubtful there is anything I enjoy as much as listening to great drumming. It's rare to find, but when it is found, it's like appreciating great art. I do like listening to guitar, but eventually that bores me, except for Hendrix. Needless to say, I also enjoy listening to bass very much. Inevitably, though, if the bass playing is spectacular, I end up comparing myself to that, and I think that's not particularly a good thing to do. I would definitely enjoy listening to bass more if I didn't do that.

[algmusic]

Get lessons! A drummer who can't play in time is a singer without pitch.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326751911' post='1501634']
i disagree. One of the best drummers I played with was a guitarist. He could use a simple 4 piece kit. nothing fancy, no histrionics, he simply provided a decent back beat...But because he was a musician first, he had good timing.

if you are working so hard you can't keep time, you're doing to much. timing first, paradiddles second....Your audience will love you for it!
[/quote]

I think you have got the wrong end of what I said. Of course timing is the most important thing, but even seemingly simple beats can be hard to get right, and can be extremely physically demanding if you have to play for a long time.

[guildbass]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1326838843' post='1502754']
I think you have got the wrong end of what I said. Of course timing is the most important thing, but even seemingly simple beats can be hard to get right, and can be extremely physically demanding if you have to play for a long time.
[/quote]

Perhaps you are right, I took what you said to mean that a drummer's timing might suffer because they were too busy and the effort of being so busy was too great. My point being that being busy is less important than the timing.
That guitarist was quite capable of playing several numbers beautifully and in faultless time whereas most 'Drummers' I have played with would frequently go out of time inside the bar as well as over the course of a song, especially whenever there was a fancy fill. I have played with two drummers who were genuinly good, both bizarrely called Martin, and both from Southampton. One was Martin Hailwood, son of Eddy from Fret music...He would pick up on a duff note and shout 'Key' instantly...yep, a drummer who actually listened to everyone else!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1326824545' post='1502481']Get lessons!...[/quote]
+1


[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1326824545' post='1502481']...is a singer without pitch.[/quote]
You mean, like 'The Cure'..?

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326840684' post='1502792']
Perhaps you are right, I took what you said to mean that a drummer's timing might suffer because they were too busy and the effort of being so busy was too great. My point being that being busy is less important than the timing.
[/quote]

Well I think it is fair to say that you should be capable of playing the song you are given to play without playing out of time. If you couldn't play a particular run on the bass to a decent standard for a song then you wouldn't just give up and play roots instead, for example.

Edited January 19, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1327007639' post='1505248']
Well I think it is fair to say that you should be capable of playing the song you are given to play without playing out of time. If you couldn't play a particular run on the bass to a decent standard for a song then [i][u][b]you wouldn't just give up and play roots instead[/b][/u][/i], for example.
[/quote]

I can think of a few that do just that round here.

[TimR]

That's not a fair comparison. More like if the original song is just roots you wouln't fill it full of runs you couldn't manage.

But then there are a fair few who do that too....

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1327011157' post='1505325']
That's not a fair comparison. More like if the original song is just roots you wouln't fill it full of runs you couldn't manage.

But then there are a fair few who do that too....
[/quote]

No, well that is right. But that is kind of like the opposite of what I was saying.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Davo-London' timestamp='1326788835' post='1501820']
The OP asked: [i]Have you had this problem, and what did you do about it? Can you train a drummer like you can train dogs, kids and spouses, i.e. by using a reward system? Or what?[/i]

Actually re-reading this, the OP question is rather drummer-bashing, so it’s not surprising what has unfolded.

Shame
Davo
[/quote]

I've finally read all of Davo-London posts and as someone who is actually has worked pro on both drums and bass, I couldn't agree more. The drummer is the driving force of a band and drummer has the most physical part in the band. It's not easy, as bassist getting fed up being told that bass is 'easy', I thought you guys who know better... anyway rant over... I still think lessons is the key and anothet non-drummer telling him, might not go down well, unless you a mate

[TimR]

No one said drumming was easy. Some drummers make it hard though. My last drummer was exhausted after every set but overplayed massively adding unnecessary fills whenever he could, waving his arms around and generally dropping beats. Never had a lesson because he didn't need one. The guy I play with now has never broken a sweat, never dropped a beat and puts in sparse and tasteful fills exactly where needed. He has had lessons. I've watched my brother play three sets in a three piece suit and not even broken a sweat. He also has had lessons

Technique is everything in every instrument.

[MoJoKe]

Sadly my experience in this matter led to much dis-harmony as the "band" that my "friend" was in, had a drummer who, with all the "help" he was given by every member of the band, including metronomes, click tracks, you name it... A great guy but refused to believe "he" was as big a problem as they all thought and quit, and the band fell apart...

[skampino]

How is he proficient if he hasn't got the basic and most important element nailed?
It's his job to dictate the tempo
You have to be truthful and tell him. Record a song and play it back using a bpm counter to demonstrate.
If after using a metronome it doesn't improve; find a replacement drummer. You cannot compromise the band's performance for one person even if they are a friend.

[Austin7]

[quote name='skampino' timestamp='1327017207' post='1505436']
How is he proficient if he hasn't got the basic and most important element nailed?
It's his job to dictate the tempo
You have to be truthful and tell him. Record a song and play it back using a bpm counter to demonstrate.
If after using a metronome it doesn't improve; find a replacement drummer. You cannot compromise the band's performance for one person even if they are a friend.
[/quote]

+1

[fonzoooroo]

I've not read through all 6 pages of this, but...

Record something. Doesn't have to be pro-sound, just needs to give you an idea of the sound/feel of the band... Relax, and listen back. ..... You'll then be able to rationally decide if it's you being super-picky (possible if the other band members are only occasionally aware of the issue) or if it's something that needs to be worked on.

If it needs to be worked on, a few lessons from a good teacher could do wonders, or, as suggested, a click or whatever.

Like you, I'm much happier playing in a band with people I get on with... after all, it's an activity in my leisure time - ... Our singer still has a folder of lyrics - but he's NEVER cancelled at the last minute, is in tune, on time, and owns his own PA..... I can forgive him the folder! .... It's just whether your drummer's time keeping is the equivalent of our singer's lyric sheets, or something much more serious!

I once played in a band with a drummer who REALLY couldn't keep time. We tried to help.... In the end, we did as I first suggested, and recorded stuff. He listened. He quit. Nice guy though.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1327012470' post='1505365']
Technique is everything in every instrument.
[/quote]

Technique can help avoid the onset of fatigue, but with drumming a LOT of it comes down to physical conditioning as well. There are just some things you can not physically do without a lot of practice just to get your arms to co-operate, I'm not talking playing fills or any fancy crap like that, I mean something as simple as playing 8th notes on the hihat for a number of minutes at a reasonable tempo.

Edited January 20, 2012 by EdwardHimself