EssentialTension Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='Ed_S' timestamp='1326350056' post='1495738'] I respectfully disagree. I think music speaks to everybody on a personal level, and to try and dictate what it'll mean to another individual by metrics alone is to greatly lessen it. To put it another way, if you've ever seen a film called Dead Poets Society, theory is to music what the writing of Dr. J. Evans Pritchard, Ph.D. is to poetry [/quote] But the teacher and the students in Dead Poets' Society had all studied language and grammar for many years before the events of the film. They could not only speak but could also read and write and analyse, explicitly or implicitly, what was written or spoken by others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Have been following this thread with interest - would have to agree with those who have endorsed learning theory. I'd say learn your Major, Minor, Pentatonic, Blues, and Modal scales (and related arpeggios) and leave it at that if you're playing in a rock band. Judging by the fact you like Myung & Harris, there wouldn't be a lot of point exploring things like Harmonic / Melodic Minor or Whole Tone scales unless you feel the need to.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='Russ' timestamp='1326329386' post='1495696']You can make the right sounds, but you'll only understand what they mean if you learn theory. Music is a language too. [/quote] I think the concept of "understanding" is somewhat over-rated. What exactly do you mean by "understand" in this context? If one can play a tasteful, counter-harmonic bassline under a certain chord progression just because it sounds and feels nice, does one need to understand WHY is sounds and feels nice? I would say, in most situations, that one doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1326357177' post='1495778']Judging by the fact you like Myung & Harris, there wouldn't be a lot of point exploring things like Harmonic / Melodic Minor or Whole Tone scales unless you feel the need to.. [/quote] Isn't that slightly prejudiced? Are you implying that rock bassists need less theoretical knowledge than players of other styles of music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Theory is not like hard maths that has to be studied seperately to playing. I learnt theory as I went along. When I played something, or someone showed me something, I was interested to know what it was, so I looked it up and remembered it. Theory is really just a way of putting names to things (sometimes things you can already do). It starts with learning the names of the notes. I kept a neck diagram nearby when I first started and when I played a note, I looked to see its name - simple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Need? Possibly, possibly not. Could you use it? Absolutely! Like someone else has posted, you can get by without, but how much better would it be if you knew where to look for particular sounds or styles, or how to interpret and reproduce something you've heard only briefly, or then incorporate those elements into your own playing? Why would anyone NOT want that? I get that theory is boring to some. But a good teacher should be able to make it fun and accessible. A great teacher should be able to do that AND incite an insatiable thirst to acquire and learn how to to use theory to your own ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_S Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1326357060' post='1495775'] But the teacher and the students in Dead Poets' Society had all studied language and grammar for many years before the events of the film. They could not only speak but could also read and write and analyse, explicitly or implicitly, what was written or spoken by others. [/quote] Ok, maybe even in jest I selected a poor analogy to carry my point. Bottom line for me is that I'm all for everybody doing what best allows them to access music, but I feel quite strongly about people being told that they 'need' to do anything in particular to do so, just because it works for the person advocating it. Like I said before, I've been extruded through lessons, theory, ABRSM exams etc. and came out of the other end disliking the instrument to the point where we parted ways. If theory is your 'way in' then great, but it was a detriment to me personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1326358169' post='1495787'] Isn't that slightly prejudiced? Are you implying that rock bassists need less theoretical knowledge than players of other styles of music? [/quote] I think you might have misinterpreted what I was saying - the more theory you know (IMO) the more tools you have at your disposal. John Myung (along with most or all of the members of Dream Theater) attended Berklee in Boston, and I wouldn't mind betting that he's got all his theory well & truly under his belt. The last line of my post might have implied that he didn't need to explore those scales, but if the OP wants to do it, more power to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 For the majority of bass players I dont think knowing music theory well is at all important. Many pro bass players dont read and get by with their ears. However if you want to do different things with your bass- such as play with other bands- travel etc then it is pretty obvious that having a good knowledge of theory and reading skills is really useful, if not to avoid feeling daft when the drummer points out you are doing something wrong!! Jaco could really play before he started learning theory. I played professionally before I could read- and I still dont think I can read well but I can get by I suppose. Horses for courses this one. For me though there are many similar posts I have seen on here and for lots it is though learning theory is like going back to school learning algebra. It is not at all- music should be enjoyable and the theory side of it should also be enjoyable- you can learn this as you go and it is not too time consuming as this can be done at any time- not just while you are playing the bass. Learning something new is always worthwhile, and no-one can argue that you will not use this knowledge at some point, but probably sooner than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I didn't read all the replies so apologies if I'm repeating. I don't think you are asking a sensible question and this maybe what is troubling you. The question should, IMO, be "what theory do I need to know?". I am certainly no expert, but I would start with a solid understanding of scales (i.e. learn them) and chords (i.e. learn them too). Even this quickly breaks down into "which scales?" and "which chords?" but that rather depends on what music you play. You could spend the rest of your life studying music theory in depth - it's like any other complex subject, you need to nail the basics and then pick and choose the stuff you need to do your job. Will it help you? Well, it helps me - I'm convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've always struggled with the theory side of music, and I glaze over rapidly when I read about it. The reason I've persisted is to know what to do when I play something wrong, rather than knowing what I'm doing when I play something right. Theory as an end in itself still leaves me cold, but theory as a way of solving problems "forces" me to pay some attention. Three practical examples: You look something up on a bass tab website. You play it, and you know it's wrong (very common, sadly). Now what? I used to stumble around until I eventually played something that sounded right - trial and error, really. Now, I'm much quicker to realise something's wrong, and know what I [i]should[/i] be playing just by learning basic scales, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths. Last week at rehearsal, we were playing She does it right - Dr Feelgood. I'd learned it in copy key of G but the singer wanted to shift it to A. The rhthym guitarist said "It's simple twelve-bar blues using 1, 4, 5 progression." 6 months ago I'd have not a clue what he was talking about and I'd have had to say "Leave it with me - I'll be OK for next week". Embarrassing. Now, I'm much more able to key-shift on the hoof. I used to play in a band that did some originals. If I was lucky, the songwriters might be able to give me a basic chord-sheet for a new song. What then? Just play the roots? A little theory really helped me to come up with a vaguely interesting bassline. OK - It's all a bit belt-and-braces, but regarding theory as a practical tool to enable me to solve song problems helps me to feel motivated to learn the basics. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdreadful Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Started taking lessons a few months ago* and I'm finding the theory stuff very useful. Learning how it ties in with particular types of music is good too. One thing I've been told is not to get yourself bogged down in knowing exactly which notes you're playing at all times, the important thing is knowing where the thirds and what not are in relation to the root. Knowing exactly what notes those are is just a bonus. [size=2]*Now not taking lessons due to impending joblessness.[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [quote name='christhammer666' timestamp='1326312074' post='1495398'] ... 4ths 5ths ect leaves my bamboozled ... [/quote] If 4ths and 5ths bamboozle you then that is because you haven't had them properly and simply explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rk7 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 In my view, a reasonable amount of theoretical knowledge can only help towards better overall playing. I've owned a bass for some years now, and was quite happy to be self-taught and play from tabs to tell me where my digits should be. As part of an upgrade to a far better instrument, my partner coughed up for some lessons for me. What a revelation these lessons have been. From a small number of visits, covering scales and their practical use, my understanding and enjoyment of the instrument has increased enormously. This is certainly due to a good teacher (thanks Martin!). The most surprising thing for me is that the lessons and theory have allowed me to play by ear more effectively, which in this case is one of the requirements of the OP? There are few, if any, things in this life that don't rely on a fair balance of skill, talent and theoretical knowledge. Has anyone learned to drive without lessons and theory? BTW, I'm ok with 4ths and 5ths, my car has six gears. Thank you please RK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 It's complicated. OF course you can get away with out any theory but my own experiences (and, I dare say, prejudices) would lead me to conclude that those without knowledge will always remain pretty lightweight and their outlook limited. There are historical exceptions, the occasional savant etc but, in the main, those without knowledge, play like they are without knowledge and those with it, play like they have it. Now there are those that will pounce on that sentence and suggest that 'feel' or 'groove' is more important than 'education' in our playing but my response would be to add that 'feel' or 'groove' are subject to music theory just as much as chords, scales and dots and understanding what makes a reggae groove different to a bossa nova is as important as whether a ninth if flattened or shrapened. All of this matters not a jot to some folk; I suspect Peter Hook is not reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book this morning and his bank balance is ambivalent to the oversight, but, to my mind and in my experience, there is so much music out there that is not available to those who limit themselves by remaining uninformed about the mechanics of music. I know a lot of theory (and am still learning at a pace) and I am not even a pro, never mind a wealthy celebrity bass player but, as I said, the knowledge I have increases the enjoyment I have from listening and playing music. I advocate learning theory simply because it adds to the fun of it. And it so opens the neck up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1326357177' post='1495778'] Have been following this thread with interest - would have to agree with those who have endorsed learning theory. I'd say learn your Major, Minor, Pentatonic, Blues, and Modal scales (and related arpeggios) and leave it at that if you're playing in a rock band. Judging by the fact you like Myung & Harris, there wouldn't be a lot of point exploring things like Harmonic / Melodic Minor or Whole Tone scales unless you feel the need to.. [/quote] Myung, no theory? Check out his tutorial vids on youtube, his theory knowledge and application is stratospheric! The short answer to this thread is...Yes! You need at least some theory to even know what a root note is if that's what you're going to hammer/pedal it in a punk manner... As has been said multiple times above, theory is musical grammar, helping you to shape phrases that will help you to express whatever you're trying to say. Even if you play solely by ear you're using theory (without necessarily knowing it!), if something sounds good, the reason it sounds good is that it conforms to some aspect of theoretical knowledge... I don't know loads of theory but I know enough to play relevant notes with respect to whatever chords are being used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1326449042' post='1497266'] It's complicated. OF course you can get away with out any theory but my own experiences (and, I dare say, prejudices) would lead me to conclude that those without knowledge will always remain pretty lightweight and their outlook limited. There are historical exceptions, the occasional savant etc but, in the main, those without knowledge, play like they are without knowledge and those with it, play like they have it. Now there are those that will pounce on that sentence and suggest that 'feel' or 'groove' is more important than 'education' in our playing but my response would be to add that 'feel' or 'groove' are subject to music theory just as much as chords, scales and dots and understanding what makes a reggae groove different to a bossa nova is as important as whether a ninth if flattened or shrapened. All of this matters not a jot to some folk; I suspect Peter Hook is not reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book this morning and his bank balance is ambivalent to the oversight, but, to my mind and in my experience, there is so much music out there that is not available to those who limit themselves by remaining uninformed about the mechanics of music. I know a lot of theory (and am still learning at a pace) and I am not even a pro, never mind a wealthy celebrity bass player but, as I said, the knowledge I have increases the enjoyment I have from listening and playing music. I advocate learning theory simply because it adds to the fun of it. And it so opens the neck up! [/quote] This too! More eminent sense from Bilbo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I need theory. This has become obvious to me recently. I thought I had a good grounding but since we've found a new keyboard player for a covers band I'm in, I realise this is not the case. His level of musicianship is way above the rest of the band and now every 10 minutes, we're having to stop as he's suggesting a different note here and there for the bass or an alternative chord for guitar that would never had occurred to us and he's right, all the time. I'm not saying I hadn't learned the songs correctly but we wanted a more funky feel to the music and tend to veer from the originals in some way so he's throwing in a few nice chords here and there and I found it a little embarassing that I just couldn't find the notes that compliment them. Yesterday, in the rehearsal break he was just repeating a couple of chords and then played about 6 bass lines that would work with them. 90% of these wouldn't have even occured to me. Some sounded nicer than others but it's the fact he was able show, and explain, all the options that are open to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1326450158' post='1497290'] I need theory. This has become obvious to me recently. I thought I had a good grounding but since we've found a new keyboard player for a covers band I'm in, I realise this is not the case. His level of musicianship is way above the rest of the band and now every 10 minutes, we're having to stop as he's suggesting a different note here and there for the bass or an alternative chord for guitar that would never had occurred to us and he's right, all the time. I'm not saying I hadn't learned the songs correctly but we wanted a more funky feel to the music and tend to veer from the originals in some way so he's throwing in a few nice chords here and there and I found it a little embarassing that I just couldn't find the notes that compliment them. Yesterday, in the rehearsal break he was just repeating a couple of chords and then played about 6 bass lines that would work with them. 90% of these wouldn't have even occured to me. Some sounded nicer than others but it's the fact he was able show, and explain, all the options that are open to him. [/quote] Its not that I want to be a smart arse, its that I want to be able to be that quick and flexible and to be able to make things work first time instead of by accident/trial and error. Can't see how I could do that without the core knowledge I have collected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='andydye' timestamp='1326449530' post='1497275'] Myung, no theory? Check out his tutorial vids on youtube, his theory knowledge and application is stratospheric! The short answer to this thread is...Yes! You need at least some theory to even know what a root note is if that's what you're going to hammer/pedal it in a punk manner... As has been said multiple times above, theory is musical grammar, helping you to shape phrases that will help you to express whatever you're trying to say. Even if you play solely by ear you're using theory (without necessarily knowing it!), if something sounds good, the reason it sounds good is that it conforms to some aspect of theoretical knowledge... I don't know loads of theory but I know enough to play relevant notes with respect to whatever chords are being used [/quote] Andy, I don't think you read my response post below (response is in Blue text): Posted Yesterday, 09:21 AM [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1495787"][/url]Conan, on 12 January 2012 - 08:49 AM, said: Isn't that slightly prejudiced? Are you implying that rock bassists need less theoretical knowledge than players of other styles of music? [color=#000080]I think you might have misinterpreted what I was saying - the more theory you know (IMO) the more tools you have at your disposal. John Myung (along with most or all of the members of Dream Theater) attended Berklee in Boston, and I wouldn't mind betting that he's got all his theory well & truly under his belt. The last line of my post might have implied that he didn't need to explore those scales, but if the OP wants to do it, more power to him. [/color] Edited January 13, 2012 by louisthebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keving Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 For me the biggest benefit to knowing theory is how much easier it makes communicating with other musicians. It is so much easier to express ideas if you all use the same terminology using a language that is designed for describing music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1326456799' post='1497392'] Andy, I don't think you read my response post below (response is in Blue text): Posted Yesterday, 09:21 AM [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1495787"][/url]Conan, on 12 January 2012 - 08:49 AM, said: Isn't that slightly prejudiced? Are you implying that rock bassists need less theoretical knowledge than players of other styles of music? [color=#000080]I think you might have misinterpreted what I was saying - the more theory you know (IMO) the more tools you have at your disposal. John Myung (along with most or all of the members of Dream Theater) attended Berklee in Boston, and I wouldn't mind betting that he's got all his theory well & truly under his belt. The last line of my post might have implied that he didn't need to explore those scales, but if the OP wants to do it, more power to him. [/color] [/quote] Ah, oops! Sorry man! Apparently only Jordan Rudess completed the course, the others dropped out early on to spend more time on the band, they do have their stuff together though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='andydye' timestamp='1326457472' post='1497411'] Ah, oops! Sorry man! Apparently only Jordan Rudess completed the course, the others dropped out early on to spend more time on the band, they do have their stuff together though! [/quote] No worries - funny thing is that I remember reading one of Myung's first interviews in BP years ago where it stated he went to Berklee with the other guys in the band, and when he became a "Prog Metal" bass superstar (so to speak), I bought a few of their albums out of curiosity and enjoyed a fair amount of the music (not really crazy about where it all goes a bit widdly widdly from time to time, but I don't hate it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1326455594' post='1497377'] Its not that I want to be a smart arse, its that I want to be able to be that quick and flexible and to be able to make things work first time instead of by accident/trial and error. Can't see how I could do that without the core knowledge I have collected. [/quote] I'm not in anyway suggesting he was a smart arse. It's just so obvious to me now that with his knowledge of theory (and experience) he, like you, can make an instant decision as to what will work best rather than me stumbling around and eventually coming across something that works so I make you right. Plenty of options, at your fingertips. I'm just gratefull that he's happy to impart all this info at the moment. He writes a lot for radio and TV so he's got the benefit of composition experience too. I love it, gives me something to aspire to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='christhammer666' timestamp='1326312074' post='1495398'] hi guys i love playing bass but most theory goes way over my head.4ths 5ths ect leaves my bamboozled. my question is do you really need a vast knowledge of theory to enjoy music my band has a cd out althought not ground breaking i have always just played by ear and play what sounds good to me. I wouldnt know if i was playing bass chords or just playing with myself. i suppose im just insecure in the fact that if i dont know every bit of theory going ill never make it as a decent bass player my 2 favourite bassists are john myung who knows the bass inside out and the other is steve harris who even though is an absolute monster on the bass would admit to not having much knowledge of theory id love to here some of your opinions jamie [/quote] Hi Jamie. I don't believe you need to know any theory to enjoy music. You could argue that acquiring theory makes you more aware of your limitations! All that said, if you want to get better at your instrument and understand what works and why - theory is invaluable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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