Not happy with my recorded sound. Advice needed.

[Bilbo]

I knocked this one up last night, trying to see if the tune would work as a bass feature but I am not happy with the [i]sound[/i] of my fretless at all. I like the sound of the lower notes (E and A string) but find the notes higher up the neck are not giving me what I want in terms of depth/warmth etc. The bass (Wal Custom fretless 4 string) is di'd so the question is; what can I do to improve the sound? Heavier strings? New strings (these are 106 years old)? Is it the di (would it sound better mic'd up/with some air in it)? Or is it the fact that it is a seqenced piano that is killing it and not the bass at all? Do I turn the bass down and the gain up or the other way around?

The tune is Don't Forget by Pat Metheny. He wrote the tune a 4th higher but to get it all on the fretless 4 string, I had to transpose it down a 4th. It still goes 'off piste' and the highest note is a bend at the very highest point on the neck (it clips) but the lower it goes, the less it sings. I woudl value people's thoughts about the recording (not so bothered about the performance).

Link to Soundcloud page

[url="http://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/dont-forget"]http://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/dont-forget[/url]

[Jerry_B]

Sounds to me like the tone needs some more mids and a tad more bass. I also think that the piano is cutting into things (but maybe that's because the fretless tone needs a bit more beefing up).

[gilmour]

There's a good site here that (IIRC) is made by a fellow basschatter.

http://www.recordingbass.co.uk/

FWIW I think the bass sounds good, very modern (I wonder if that's what you're not liking?)

[moonbass]

I think it's a nice sound, but from your description it sounds like you're not so keen on the high mids which do seem a little rattley. A few things I'd try:
-I know you weren't so bothered about the playing but perhaps raising the action a hair and using a touch of vivrato would mellow the top notes
-What DI are you using? Sounds like a different one, or even going through a desk with a nice preamp would help. Either that or try the DI out of a 'valve-ish' head (I'm currently getting lovely results with GB Streamliner.)
-In your recording platform try taking out some high mids. As an amateur I'm fairly fond of presets, and for speed I often duplicate the recorded line and in Logic use two different sounds on each. For instance sixties finger style and sixties pick style channel presets work very well together to make tracks a lot more warm. (I guess it's a but like adding a DI signal to a mic'ed signal.)
Andy

[paul_5]

OR you could try setting up a bass a to C instead of E to G? A bit excessive, but a great approach to fretless.

[lowdown]

Before you go down the route of new DI boxes, mic's, stomp boxes, FX racks, re arranging the house and SSL desks,
try changing the Strings first, much cheaper.

The natural decay as you go up the neck on the D & g strings seems quite short and dead. [to me]
I had this problem a few years ago when for some reason i was using lighter gauge strings and a lower action.
Low action is not always desirable on Fretless, the higher notes won't sing out, and the low notes run into each other.
[ Different for each player, and Bass set up of course ]
I went back to cable gauge and all was fine again.

Garry

Edited January 13, 2012 by lowdown

[Bilbo]

I just ordered some new Rotosound Solo bass strings (the one's on there are at least 10 years old, if not longer). I'll see where that takes me. After that, I can certainly try raising the action (now I play double bass, the extra tension will never interfere with the execution of anything meaningful).

I am looking for a bit more 'mwah' up the top. Sounding modern is not very 'me' either, although it wouldn't hurt!!

[ThomBassmonkey]

Newer strings would be my first call if they're 10 years old.

I know that people get away with leaving strings on for decades, but I find too much bass on the EQ with old strings makes them sound muddy. New strings should let you turn up the bass some whilst still maintaining clarity if that's what you're struggling with. I'm no expert on fretlesses though, by a long way.

Edit: Also, to my preferences, there's a bit too much low mid in there, it's making it a little honky. That's just my preference though.

Edited January 13, 2012 by ThomBassmonkey

[brensabre79]

Don't forget to compress. A decent amount of compression will improve sustain, warmth and help it sit in the mix more consistently.

[The Dark Lord]

You could try compression. Not too much as it takes all of the articulation out of it. Or, If you have a limiter (rather than a compressor) you could try that. Lops of the peaks.

[51m0n]

Bilbo, whack new strings on, record it and see how it goes.

You will get masses more harmoinic inof that will really help, you will need to turn down the treble some and let your ear get used to the difference too though.

The piano is wooden like a cricket bat mind, and I found it really distracting!

[paul_5]

a little bit of distortion (gentle, warm kind, not overdrive or fuzz) might 'lift' the line too.

[Bilbo]

The piano is a Band in the Box job with an alternative acoustic piano VST. I am less bothered by that as it was always going to suck but, with the bass, its all me so I can't blame the technology!! I did record this a few years ago on 2 guitars (as per the Jim Hall/Metheny version) and it was ok so I could try again with a real guitar (Nylon, steel or jazz). But, at this stage, it was a case of trying to see if the piece worked as a starter for ten. May be worth the extra effort now.

New strings are on their way (I have a spare set of Solo bass but they are the lighter guage and I don't think that is a good idea in terms of what I am trying to do so will wait until Monday when the new ones arrive before I try again).

[AndroWal]

Regarding your action....I play fretless more than fretted. My experience is that I get more growl, mwah, with lower action, not higher. On my Wals...I have the action as low as it can go without the strings sitting on the fingerboard and buzzing on their own, and all my notes...low to high sound great and the upper ranges do sing.

When recording, I usually run two channels....one from the 1/4 out and one from the Wal DI. My usual pick-up setting is to employ only the bridge pick-up, or with just a touch...up to the first line from all bridge, of neck pick-up. I run the tone controls flat...on 10. I record flat and eq later to taste.

New strings are essential. I use DR Highbeams and have for years. The best feeling to me. They stay bright for a long time and I love the sound of them on my Wal fretlesses and on my Zon Fretless. I actuall use them on all my basses, fretted also.

This all written, I just listened to your take. Your sound is good! Just like a Wal with old, old strings! Has a bit of a stand-up sound with the deadness of the strings...short decay. I think you will hear a world of difference with new strings and a set-up. Use that bridge pick-up!

Edited January 13, 2012 by AndroWal

[Jerry_B]

I'm the opposite with my fretlesses - if the action is too low, they end up being too prone to buzzing and losing their tone.

Maybe the moral of the story is that some things may be dependant on taste and maybe the kit you're using

[xilddx]

It sounds alright to me, Bilbo, if a little dead-string vibe. Maybe some new strings are the answer.

[Prime_BASS]

sounds like an a-typical fretless sound to me.

New strings, less attack on both plucking and fretting hand may help. Once you have the strings on, you may find you need to cut around 2khz and boost a little on the low mid side, around 800hz.

[JakeBrownBass]

When you get some new strings & re-record it Bilbo, send it this way, I love this tune & would really enjoy mixing it!

Jake

[leftyhook]

your right hand plucking near the fingerboard can help encourage the m-w-a-a-h..

but yes, get some new strings....old strings can be stiff and expressively difficult.

[Bilbo]

Got the new strings on last night and noticed an immediate improvement in some areas; the bass certaonly seems to 'sing' more and the attack on the notes is quicker, giving me more ocntril over phrases etc but the overall sound is still not what I want it to be so I will have to try other things (pick up height, action etc),

Trouble with these things is that I have to steal moments to look at it and can't ever sit down and work at the issue for hours.

[Bilbo]

I have been nursing a frustrating hum for years now and thought I had tried everything (different leads, moving hardware, earth loops etc) and had given up on the thing, deciding to live with it rather than fret about it because in most cases you can't hear it on the finsihed track and because I am only sketching, not recording things for release.

Anyway, for no reason other than grabbing what was at hand, I used a new (expensive) lead on the weekend (one of the ones I gig with)and its a silent as a grave. It wasn't that I was using one bad lead. It was ALL of my leads that were cheap and probably bordeline microphonic (hence chaning the original set of leads had not cured the problem).

SO now I have to replace all of my leads with decent ones. More expense!

[StraightSix]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1329149725' post='1537874']
I have been nursing a frustrating hum for years now and thought I had tried everything (different leads, moving hardware, earth loops etc) and had given up on the thing, deciding to live with it rather than fret about it because in most cases you can't hear it on the finsihed track and because I am only sketching, not recording things for release.

Anyway, for no reason other than grabbing what was at hand, I used a new (expensive) lead on the weekend (one of the ones I gig with)and its a silent as a grave. It wasn't that I was using one bad lead. It was ALL of my leads that were cheap and probably bordeline microphonic (hence chaning the original set of leads had not cured the problem).

SO now I have to replace all of my leads with decent ones. More expense!
[/quote]

Worthy expense though - I have just upgraded my instrument cables and it has made a difference.

Are you using any compression or limiting on your bass recording...?

[51m0n]

Madness, live with the hum (J!)

[Bilbo]

I occasionally try some compression/limiting but not routinely (my recordings are never properly mastered either, just mixed down to mp3), Even though I know what it does, I can't really hear it. I mix through headphones mostly; maybe that's an issue too!

[StraightSix]

Well, I'm no Trevor Horn but IMHO compression is virtually essential to record a bass.

Bass has huge dynamic range and is difficult to record well without compression.

Headphones are good for checking your mix with but I would use monitor speakers too for comparison.