Reading advice required

[phil625sxc]

Hi all

Reading - i've been meaning to learn for ages but until the last couple of years I've not had any need to and so it has been hard to get the motivation.
I'm now at a stage where I'm not too bad, and my new year's reolution is to try and have a crack at doing it properly, try and do a bit every day if I can, even 30 mins or so and see if i can get to a decent standard by the end of this year...
so...I just want to get opinions on whether either of these 2 methods is better than the other:

A. Read straight through as many different pieces as possible without stopping, to a click, regardless of mistakes
B. Work on particular charts until they can be played flawlessly.

If I had unlimited time then obviously both of these would be ideal, but I just wondered if anyone had views on whether one is better ?

Thanks,

Phil

[pietruszka]

Im not far ahead of yourself, I personally found just reading helps, and lots of it. Work on it in sections like you would learning any track. I did YYZ from dots and did it in its sections, it was the rhythm I struggle with but you'll get there!

Get some classical books, they have easy to read melodies which should help the recognition of intervals and a lot are in eighths or simpler. I have Technitunes by Sheila M. Nelson, songs arranged for double bass, simply because its in bass clef, and J.S. Bach For Bass on MEL BAY publications. Good fun to read and play.

It takes time and practice!



Dan

[phil625sxc]

thanks Dan, that's good advice - I've been dowloading as much as I can, lots of cello scores including some duets which should be fun to work through (apart from when they move out of bass clef !) and I guess it's just a case of doing as much different stuff as pos.
I find if I play through a part even a few times some of it goes into memory, which is fine, but I want to get to the stage where I can play through charts of a reasonable standard first time !
All the best,

Phil

[pietruszka]

You and me both! Let us know how you get on.



Dan

[louisthebass]

A couple of books I've been using to learn how to read are "Music Reading for Bass" by Wendi Hreovscik (MI Press), and a book that is long out of print called "The Complete Electric Bassist" by Leon White (Belwin-Mills 1981).

No tab in either, but both books give different fretting options (the latter tends to use a Simandl type fingering).

Hope this helps?

[JakeBrownBass]

The way I've tought others to read is as follows, this is after learning the basics (notes on the the stage, key signatures, rhythms, notation symbols)

Put a real book in front of you on page one, set a metronome at a slow tempo, read that page, as soon as you make a mistake turn to the next page. Even if it's in the first bar, change the page.

What you'll begin to notice is that you get further & further through the page until you can finish the piece. The next step is picking up the tempo.

Doing it this way, your not memorising parts as you go along, your looking at key signatures straight away & your actually sight reading.

Learning things in sections really means your not sgiht reading anymore and your mind is using more memory than you think.

Edited January 14, 2012 by JakeBrownBass

[Bilbo]

Straight answer - both. Reading shedloads right off and not 'correcting' mistakes is a great discipline because you are learning to read not learning to play and it is by DOING it that you will get more proficient. However, if you come across a passage that you really struggle with, then it may be helpful to focus in on it to make sure you have the required understanding. But, yes, I really advocate some heavy sessions just reading and keeping going. My tutor, Dan Quinton, did this to me and it was amazingly productive.

[Faithless]

Contrary to what has been said, my advice is this:

reading consists of two separate things - notes (pitches) and rhythm. You have to separate these two and practice them individually for [b]long [/b]before you actually can mix them together and do the real thing.

Now, you're interested how you can practice them separately, right.
For note recognition on the bass, check out this exercise first:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0sS0hhfezQ[/media]

Then, get some rhythms book (it doesnt really matter which one, it can be 'dedicated' to drummers or whatever), I heard that a good one is the by Louie Bellson "Modern Reading in 4/4", something like that, and play those rhythms (just on one note, no different pitches) on the bass, make sure you memorize each one, and can put it to a high tempo before you move on to the next exercise.

Just to make sure, everytime you practice something new (it doesnt matter if it reading, or whatever), do it [b]out of time[/b] (without metronome) so that you are able to correct [b]ANY [/b]mistakes you're making along the way. Practice and improvement is all about making mistakes, and that's what you 'want' to do in the practice room. Metronome implies real-time, so you dont want to use it at the starting point.

Only when you become comfortable with material, then put on the metronome, and make sure you increase the BPM by little, 2-3bpm each time at most.

Let us know how you get on,
easy
Laimis

Edited January 14, 2012 by Faithless

[phil625sxc]

Thanks guys, some good advice there, much appreciated.
Bilbo and Jake, thanks that's the answer I was looking for, I thought that reading through as much different material as possible would be a worthwhile exercise so thanks for the confirmation, I'll give your method with the Real Book a go Jake as I have one in bass clef.
Liamis, thanks for the reply but I think my question was really about how to improve sight reading - I can read to a certain level ok-ish, and can work out difficult charts if I spend time on them but I want to improve my sight reading..point in question that made me ask this really was, in my last rehearsal with the big band we had the chart for Mueva Los Huesos - Gordon Goodwin put in front if us, if anyone knows that tune - it's not too difficult and after taking it home and going through it for an hour I can just about play it fine, at tempo - but trying to sight read it I had no chance ! Whereas those pesky horn players just breezed straight though it, and I would love to get to somewhere near to that level... :-)
I only have the full band score but can attach it if anyone wants ?
Also, I've been going through some scores and recording myself, which I find puts a bit more pressure on to get it right first time and really concentrate on reading it correctly.

Thanks again guys.

Phil

[Faithless]

I know what you're saying, though, can you do that Joe Hubbard's exercise? I know he had pupils playing both 6 months and 16 years, and none of them could do it properly at first time. It's all about knowing your axe.

I'm also doing the stuff I mentioned though I could read to an ok level already - its all about learning the most common possibilities rhythm and note wise, so that you can nail it first time.
Remember, that there will be times where you wont be able to get the chart and bring it home to learn, that's why you want to have your reading chops up to date.
In the end, my point was that we should be learning [b]not [/b]in the mode of performance, that is, not with the metronome on, and brushing through the real-book, nevermind, if there were any mistakes or not - we want to make the mistakes in the practice booth, not on the bandstand, right?

Anyway, see what works best for you, I hope that was a bit of help, mate
easy
Laimis

[Bilbo]

Your points are valid, Faithless, but I put a lot of store in practising the art of reading in real time because all the practice in the world won't prepare you for dealing with the dots passing in front of your eyes in reai time in a 'sh*t or bust' fashion that is demanded by a reading gig. Agonsing over each bar is important and the stage I am describing won't be possible without having learned how to read the dots but learning to read several bars at a time, across bar lines, as you glance over the page, whilst the tune is being performed and whilst there is no time for reviewing and slowing down to nail it perfectly can [i]only [/i]be learned in 'performance' mode.

[Hector]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1326672139' post='1500420']
Your points are valid, Faithless, but I put a lot of store in practising the art of reading in real time because all the practice in the world won't prepare you for dealing with the dots passing in front of your eyes in reai time in a 'sh*t or bust' fashion that is demanded by a reading gig. Agonsing over each bar is important and the stage I am describing won't be possible without having learned how to read the dots but learning to read several bars at a time, across bar lines, as you glance over the page, whilst the tune is being performed and whilst there is no time for reviewing and slowing down to nail it perfectly can [i]only [/i]be learned in 'performance' mode.
[/quote]

QFT. I first learnt to read music by lying and claiming I could in order to get the gig and then spending every rehearsal/performance bricking myself until I could actually do it (Les MIs as well, not an easy score). Did wonders for my reading!

My 2p's worth of advice would definitely be to get familiar with rhythms, as they're the tricky bit: there's only so many notes, but lots of different rhythms. If you're playing in a certain style, maybe familiarise yourself with the basic types of rhythms used?

[Faithless]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1326672139' post='1500420']
Your points are valid, Faithless, but I put a lot of store in practising the art of reading in real time because all the practice in the world won't prepare you for dealing with the dots passing in front of your eyes in reai time in a 'sh*t or bust' fashion that is demanded by a reading gig. Agonsing over each bar is important and the stage I am describing won't be possible without having learned how to read the dots but learning to read several bars at a time, across bar lines, as you glance over the page, whilst the tune is being performed and whilst there is no time for reviewing and slowing down to nail it perfectly can [i]only [/i]be learned in 'performance' mode.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that reading shedloads of stuff isnt a good thing, but, the most common issue about reading for all musicians is rhythms, and there are certain groupings (not too many in total,tbh) that are met over and over again, so what I'm trying to say is that its worth spending time only with rhythms and memorize the most common stuff.

Now, about pitches (by the way, can you do that Joe's exercise, Bilbo? ) - its a very big issue for guitar-instrument players (unlike, piano players, for example), because there are lots of note duplications on the fretboard, and most guys arent familiar with them.... not to mention that this stuff is one of the most fundamental things to know about your axe.

easy
Laimis

[phil625sxc]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1326625242' post='1499568']
I know what you're saying, though, can you do that Joe Hubbard's exercise? I know he had pupils playing both 6 months and 16 years, and none of them could do it properly at first time. It's all about knowing your axe.
[/quote]

I probably couldn't to be honest, not all the way across the bass but, that doesn't really bother me - I'm probably never going to play the 2nd octave B on the 24th fret of the B string in my entire life !! :-)
That's not to say it's not a great thing to be able to do, but it's not really relevant to my question - I know the notes in the areas I play on the neck ok-ish, probably not as much as I should on the C string but mostly I'm ok.
What I was asking for was advice on improving my sight reading, as I have limited free time to practise - maybe I didn't phrase the question properly - thanks for your replies anyway though ! :-)
Best,

Phil

[Bilbo]

I agree that working with rhythm in reading is very important (as is reading pitches; you can't do one without the other) but I found that the real trouble starts not in the reading of one or two or even four bars but in the constant reading of bar after bar after bar of music with the occasional repeat bar, all as the rest of the music continues unrelentlessly!! It is the discipline of reading, concentrating on the written page and only on the written page, that I think needs particular attention.

Haven't even looked at Joe's exercise yet(can't watch/hear in work and haven't had time at home). Will have a look when I get the chance.

[Faithless]

[quote name='phil625sxc' timestamp='1326729545' post='1501126']
I probably couldn't to be honest, not all the way across the bass but, that doesn't really bother me - I'm probably never going to play the 2nd octave B on the 24th fret of the B string in my entire life !! :-)
That's not to say it's not a great thing to be able to do, but it's not really relevant to my question - I know the notes in the areas I play on the neck ok-ish, probably not as much as I should on the C string but mostly I'm ok.
What I was asking for was advice on improving my sight reading, as I have limited free time to practise - maybe I didn't phrase the question properly - thanks for your replies anyway though ! :-)
Best,

Phil
[/quote]

how about you get a little 'stand-up' section written in Treble Clef, which implies the top of the bass range?
Anyway, one of the main purposes of that exercise is to know the available options when under pressure (on the reading gig) - most guys, who dont know they axe properly, when see a C note, chooses the A string (3rd fret) to hit it, but there also one on E string (8th fret), which could be a better option if the following phrase is an ascending thing, so that you should have to do little hand movement, or not do it at all, depending on the stuff.
Speaking of that, you can't be fiddling with these options on the gig (because there's risk of failure, and you have to nail the gig, right) - that's why you want to practice this at home, with metronome (which implies time = pressure), so that you can conciously choose what works best on the gig, without the risk of failure.

[Bilbo]

Whilst there are clearly several choices for finger placement, the number of mad jumps necessary in most reading are very few, simply because people who write out the charts are not bass players so they don't include that many Chuck Rainey double stops or Wootenesque two handed tapping passages. Most reading on gigs is not that extreme and, where it is, there tends to be room for rehearsal and review because the rest of the music is equally demanding! ANd, in my experience, when those mad jumps appear, they are often extraneous and, if you miss them, noone dies!!

[phil625sxc]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1326730439' post='1501151']
how about you get a little 'stand-up' section written in Treble Clef, which implies the top of the bass range?
[/quote]

then I wouldn't be able to play it as I can't read treble clef anyway ! :-) but really, how likely is this scenario ? And I can confidently say that in my future bass playing I'm 99% sure I'll never be asked to sight read a chart which has a section written in treble - (some of the cello scores I'm using fpr reading practice do however)
Again, thanks for the advice but I'm familiar with the notes on the majority of the neck, and my question was about reading methods.
Best,

Phil

[phil625sxc]

this is the 1st page of the chart I referred to earlier that made me start thinking about this and post the question...[attachment=97491:Mueve Los Huesos.pdf]

[Bilbo]

Just looked at Joe's exercise. Useful for a relative beginner, I guess, but I had that nailed about 25 years ago!! When I was starting out, I saw a video of Victor Bailey w. Weather Report (Domino Theory, Live In Japan) and watched him jumping around all over the neck and I realised then that I needed to learn where the notes were if I wanted to do this properly. The real skill is doing it without looking at the neck i.e. when you are reading.

[phil625sxc]

yep I agree - I'm not too bad moving postion when reading with frets, but pretty hopeless on fretless ! any tips for this while we're here ?? apart from just doing it lots I guess...

[Faithless]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1326741478' post='1501406']
Just looked at Joe's exercise. Useful for a relative beginner, I guess, but I had that nailed about 25 years ago!! When I was starting out, I saw a video of Victor Bailey w. Weather Report (Domino Theory, Live In Japan) and watched him jumping around all over the neck and I realised then that I needed to learn where the notes were if I wanted to do this properly. The real skill is doing it without looking at the neck i.e. when you are reading.
[/quote]

The real deal is to do that exercise at burning tempo (fluidly) - 110-120pbm or higher, non stop till you do all the 12 notes.
Anyway, as Joe mentioned already, he knew some guys who've played for 16 years, and couldnt do it; I showed this to my friend, a local session guy, badass player, who's been up for 12-14 years, and he couldnt find those C notes properly even with a metronome off so I'd say that this can be applied even for intermediate/advanced players.

What about not looking at the fretboard - this comes from memorization, which means shitload of practice, so there's no shortcut around this drill.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Faithless

[Hector]

Oh, one other thing about reading that I'd recommend thinking about:

Try and think of the end of the note as a rhythmic event just as distinct as the beginning. Took me much longer that it should've to get that concept, but I find it really makes a difference.

Edit - Just a thought about that note learning exercise is that it could be useful to do it by visualising the fretboard in your head and trying to do it that way.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Hector

[Bilbo]

Agree with the mportance of the end of the note. When I write a chart for any instrument, I am profoundly aware of the length of the notes I require and, as a result, I try to remain in tune with that element of a piece when I am reading it.

[phil625sxc]

sorry, not sure I follow - by the end of the note do you mean the length of the note ?