Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) If I understand correctly - from comparing with a fretted bass - the side dots on a fretless indicate exactly where to press your fingertip in order to obtain the corresponding note. That's as opposed to the dots on a fretted which are bang in the middle of the relevant fret. The two dots that indicate the octave appear to (more or less) be in the same place on both basses, and I need to press my fingertip between them in order to obtain the note. If the above is correct, then it appears I'm at least partly wrong in blaming myself for not getting the right intonation while playing. If I use a chromatic tuner and play each note correctly as marked, it reveals that nearly every note marked, on almost all strings, is sharp - in some cases waay too sharp, despite the open strings having been tuned to perfection. So my musical ear hasn't suddenly abandoned me, after all. My question - can I do what I would do on a fretted bass, and set the strings up correctly via the springs at the bridge? Or is there some trick I'm missing? Incidentally, since this is a new bass, it's probably advisable for me to wait a few weeks or so until it has 'acclimatised' to the UK and my neck of the woods and my flat. But I'm asking you infinitely helpful and patient folks in advance Thank you, as always. Edited January 14, 2012 by bluejay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I find that you have to play fractionally behind the side dots to intonate on fretless - presumably as your finger tip is rounded and the pressure point is not the point that determines the note but the fleshy bit on the bridge side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Ha, good point. Will try that. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 There's a whole load of variables here. Firstly don't assume that the dot markers on an unlined fretless are going to be where the frets should be - I own one that has them in the place where they would be if the bass had frets. The easiest way to check this is to measure from the nut to the 12th fret marker. On a 34" scale bass this should be 17" - if it's not then the markers are in the in between positions. Secondly the witness point of the string on a fretless is where the string emerges from under your fingertip so usually you need to play just behind the marker point to get the correct pitch. From you say it sounds as though the position markers are in the correct place but because you are using them as the middle point for you finger position then all your notes will be sharp to one degree or another. Ultimately you have to treat the markers a rough guides only and use your ears to guide you to the correct pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 The reason why I said that the dots indicate the notes is because I put my fretted and my fretless 5-stringers side by side and looked at the dots on each. The fretless has dots where the fretted has the actual bit of metal. So yes, probably silly of me not to think that I should press a little behind each dot, as you can't help doing when the actual fret is there. But you're right, it's best to just get the hang of it by ear - after all, I'm taming the upright, therefore I shouldn't allow a humble fretless to have the better on me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apa Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I know what your talking about bluejay. I intonate so the note is ON the dots so you should finger just behind the dots. See here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/159580-how-do-you-intonate-your-fretless/page__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/159580-how-do-you-intonate-your-fretless/page__fromsearch__1[/url] A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Excellent. Thank you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Rich Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) It's also possible that the intonation isn't set quite correctly on the bridge of your bass, usually the bridge saddles on fretless basses seem to end up a bit further away from the neck (making the string a bit longer) compared their positions on fretted basses. Play the harmonic on the 12th fret and then play the note on the fingerboard in the place you'd expect to find it, if the fretted note is much sharper than the harmonic you may want to move the bridge saddle back a bit. Similarly compare the harmonic to the note at the 24th fret. I found my intonation was really awful as I played higher up the neck on one of my basses no matter how hard I tried, I adjusted the bridge and it made a huge difference. Now my intonation is just pretty awful Edited January 14, 2012 by Fat Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 LOL I know what you mean! As I said in my first post, adjusting the bridge saddles was what i thought about doing in the first place. Will try all suggestions and let you know how I get along Thank you FR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Remember that a fretted instrument uses equal temperament, to establish the positions of the frets, but this can never be perfect at all positions. You can use the side dots for general guidance on a fretless instrument, but don't get hung up on these positions being perfectly pitched. Trust your ear, which, from what you say, was how you noticed this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm agreeing with the above - you have to listen, not look. When I had a fretless, I almost never looked at the (unmarked/lined) fingerboard - on a dark stage there was little point. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Thank you Noel and Geoff! Luckily my musical ear is now reasonably trained, also thanks to playing the upright, so it should mostly be a matter of practicing on the fretless until I sound acceptable Edited January 14, 2012 by bluejay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This caught me out too when i first got my fretless and t'was a bugger to get used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Cellist first. Fretted instruments sounded "wrong" to me for a long time. With all things sound the ear adjusted with continued exposure. Just trust your ears, not your eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Just had a session which included some work on the fretless and I'm sounding a lot better already, after following the advice you guys gave me both on position and musical ear. Thank you all so much. PS Geoff, apologies for misspelling your name. Edited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'd get some frets fitted, it'll sound like a proper bass then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I found a good exercise when learning fretless was to use the E and A strings as drones, then play little tunes over these. Sorts your ears out pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1326582942' post='1499266'] I'd get some frets fitted, it'll sound like a proper bass then! [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Thanks Paul, I may try that too. But in general, I'm finding it easier to get into the swing of fretless playing than I did when I started on the upright, as my hand has already memorised the fingering positions on the 5-stringer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Yep, it turned out the intonation on my first fretless was a mile off, I spent several months wondering why I sounded so bad. Now, of course, I've no excuse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) The one I have appears to need a bit of adjusting at the bridge saddles too, but I'll wait a while. I also like to lower the G string so that it's closer - within limits, of course - to the fingerboard than the other strings, as I find it easier to play like that. That's something I'll do in a few weeks' time as well. Edited January 14, 2012 by bluejay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1326582854' post='1499263'] PS Geoff, apologies for misspelling your name. Edited. [/quote] Forgiven, you are! G. Edited January 14, 2012 by geoffbyrne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1326564580' post='1498968'] ........... it should mostly be a matter of practicing on the fretless until I sound acceptable [/quote] Maybe I was lucky, but I took to fretless almost instantly - had to do a bit of work on intonation, especially up at the dusty end, but got the instrument on Tuesday & played a gig with it (only instrument) on the Saturday. The only tip I can offer is that I found I played open strings more frequently rather than fretting(!)/fingering the note on a lower string, as this gave my ear a reference point for intonation. I did this less as my confidence grew, but still did it occasionally. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1326623039' post='1499533'] The only tip I can offer is that I found I played open strings more frequently rather than fretting(!)/fingering the note on a lower string, as this gave my ear a reference point for intonation. I did this less as my confidence grew, but still did it occasionally. G. [/quote] That's what you tend to do on upright/double bass, so I'm familiar with the trick . But It's far less necessary on the fretless after a bit of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dots on neck - ickle Ends of fingers - big Trust your ears over your eyes every time. (says 'Rob of the perfick intonation' - not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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