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Condenser mics for live?


spinynorman
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A while ago I bought an Audio Technica ATM710, without any very clear idea what I was going to do with it.

Are there any (dis)advantages to using condenser mics in live situations? We're a guitar + bass + drums + female vocal pop/rock band in mostly smallish pub venues, currently using SM58s.

Our mixer can deliver phantom power, but it's only switchable on channel pairs. So I'd have an SM58 on a channel with phantom power switched on. Any problem with that?

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[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1326724095' post='1501002']
A while ago I bought an Audio Technica ATM710, without any very clear idea what I was going to do with it.

Are there any (dis)advantages to using condenser mics in live situations? We're a guitar + bass + drums + female vocal pop/rock band in mostly smallish pub venues, currently using SM58s.

Our mixer can deliver phantom power, but it's only switchable on channel pairs. So I'd have an SM58 on a channel with phantom power switched on. Any problem with that?
[/quote]
No problem with using most dynamics with phantom power - they'll just ignore the volts across the coil. Won't make any difference.

Spec's for the ATM-710 are [url="http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/95f5b9aa614aebf6/atm710_submit.pdf"]here[/url] if that helps - it's a cardioid polar pattern mic with excellent rear rejection, and a fairly narrow angle of acceptance , so pretty handy for vocal work. There is a pronounced hump at 5k and another at around 12k, looking at the frequency plot, so worth watching out for on female vocals, but I can't see any real issue (caveat here! more experienced engineers can chime in here :D )

HTH,
Ian

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Theres nothing [i]wrong[/i] with using condenser mics for live work. But then again, unless you're miking up really quiet things theres not really any need either. Condenser mics can be a lot more sensitive than dynamic ones. If its for band vocals though I've said many times that there is a very good reason that the Shure SM58 has been the industry standard for a very long time!

We have 4 vocals in our band, one uses a rather expensive and good quality Beyer condenser for his vocals the other 3 use SM58s. Take a guess at the one who always has feedback problems, picks up the drums and guitars when not singing and can't be heard out front (because he's had to turn down due to the feedback!). He's getting an SM58.

If you haven't got your own engineer, I personally would go with SM58s all around and save a considerable amount of hassle and money :)

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Shure Beta 87A is a great live hypercardioid condenser Mic, particularly well suited to female vocals, with exceptional detail and clarity. Not cheap though! I think there's quite a good sennheiser one too which is a bit cheaper, but I can't remember what it's called.....

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[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1326745088' post='1501497']
I think there's quite a good sennheiser one too which is a bit cheaper, but I can't remember what it's called.....
[/quote]

...Sennheiser E865 ?

I would give the AT a try and see how it fares - it could be excellent if you don't play too loud.

Condensors generally give a little more openess and detail which, depending on your singer, can make all the difference.

Edited by StraightSix
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The bump at 12k will probably give a little bit more 'sparkle' to the performance than a bog-standard 58 or similar. Lots of engineers I know would balk at the idea of using a condenser for live vocals, but in the words of Joe Meek - "if it sounds right, it IS right".

Edited by paul_5
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Condenser mics pick up a lot of ambient noise, and require the user to have a fair bit of skill as regards mic technique. the distance from the mic to the mouth is important. whereas an SM58 or other dynamic can be used with the singer basically brushing the screen with their lips, a condenser needs the vocalist to know how far to pull away on loud bits and how close to go on bits that require a bit of warmth. The warmth is down to something called bass proximity effect and means if you get close in, the sound gets really fat and rich...Most decent condensers have BPE cut switching as well as pads to help limit volume stuff but even so,.... For a cool little combo with a backline that is for monitoring only so is fairly quiet...You know, most is out through the font of house, and a vocalist who understands projection and has great mic technique...or is at least prepared to maintain a fairly constant distance from the mic, a decent condenser mic sounds very hiFi natural and sweet...

But on stage with a rock band, it's a complete waste of time as the backline will be coming through the mic to such a degree half the time the entire front of house mix will be buggered and as soon as the singer's head gets in the way the sound will partially disappear. Your sound guy will struggle to maintain levels as the kit will pile through the vocal mic making IT even louder and you end up in a volume spiral with the PA running out of headroom and the vocalists disappearing into the mix.
Get a decent dynamic mic...Not necessarily an SM58, they're very old hat...60's technology...Still OK but surpassed a while ago as the industry standard. EV's are quite good...But just look around...there's loads of good dynamics out there...

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[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326764650' post='1501766']
Get a decent dynamic mic...Not necessarily an SM58, they're very old hat...60's technology...Still OK but surpassed a while ago as the industry standard. EV's are quite good...But just look around...there's loads of good dynamics out there...
[/quote]

So what is the industry standard now?

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I still much prefer condensers/back electrets on 'difficult' vocals, particularly female. The extra clarity is very noticeable IME, bizarrely especially through cheaper speakers - I suppose all the distortion is additive.
You do get more feedback to start with but this is partly just beacuse the mics are a lot more sensitive, particularly at the high end. You can roll off a lot of treble on a condenser before it becomes problematic, the clarity is maintained better. Don't worry where the EQ is, use your ears (most mics don't give anything like flat responses anyway). Just like dynamics though, there are condensers out there that are much better or worse than others in terms of polar plots/feedback rejection.

The main issue I've found is that some desks that don't have a pad will struggle to cope with the hot signal off certain condenser mics.

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Some great information there, so thanks, as always. With the combination of female vocal and not, I think, great mic technique, sounds a bit risky, especially as the guy who baby sits the PA while I'm playing doesn't have a great grasp of the options when something goes wrong, other than to turn it down.

I thought the SM58 was still industry standard, so I'd also be interested what has overtaken it.

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How do you measure an industry standard??? If you were to look at what most Tour's use these days Sennheiser pretty much outweighs Shure by a long way.... A lot of FOH guys know what an SM58 sounds like... it's not a great sounding mike but they know what the characteristics and limitations of the mic are which makes it much easier to work with.

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