So what is a Jazz bass and what is the best example?

[Linus27]

OK, so this is going to be a bit open to abuse and personel opinion but it could be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on this.

Fender invented the Jazz bass and in theory is the benchmark of what a Jazz bass should be all about. If you wanted the Jazz bass of Jazz basses, then you would buy a Fender right? I mean, if you wanted a Ferrari F40, you wouldn't go and buy an MR2. However, yesterday, i was talking to a very well known and respected bass retailer who gave me the impression that he was not overly impressed with Fender's especially the quality of the pickups. He then went on to explain that other brands make better. I can't help but think that other brands would just be a copy and unless it sounds exactly like a Fender Jazz then its not really a true representation of a Jazz bass. An example is the Bartolini pickups in my Jazz sound fantastic but are much smoother and darker than stock Fender Jazz pickups so in reality don't give that true Jazz tone.

Unless that is, if Fender have gone astray and their current take of their Fender Jazz is nothing like the original concept of a Fender Jazz and these other brands are closer to what an original Fender Jazz was all about.

I see a lot of people talk about Sadowsky, Lakland, Sandberg etc making great Jazz basses but what makes them better or is it just perception? Ok, craftmanship I can understand as Fender does/have had some QA issue but unless these other brands are using the Fender Jazz pickups then surely if it sounds different then its not a true representation of a Jazz bass.

So, I would be interested in hearing the interpritation of what the Fender Jazz is tonally and its relation to other brands take on the Jazz bass especially in regards to the pickups and tone a Jazz should have.

I also want to add that in no way am I being Pro Fender or anti any other brand. I am just interested in where we started with the Jazz bass and where we are now. Has it developed into just a famous shape with two pickups, one in the bridge and one in the neck position and thats enough to call it a Jazz bass and the original Fender tone, if there was an intentional one has become second to just the look and features.

I hope that makes sense

[jackers]

To me, regardless of what anyone else may say, the purest representation of a jazz bass is a fender, because I like the simplicity, and because that was the 'original'. Sure, other companies have made copies, or 'super jazzes' as some people call them, and they may suit some people's needs better than a fender jazz, but I definitely wouldn't call them the new standard for a jazz bass. Afterall, without the Fender Jazz, there may not be any other jazz basses either

Also, I will happily admit to really liking having the word 'fender' on the headstock of my bass Not to show off or because I'm a fender fan-boy, but I just think it looks really cool, haha.

Now I'm not saying that I don't like other companies takes on a jazz, because every Sadowsky and Sandberg I have played sounds incredible, but to me they just aren't quite a true jazz bass.

/my 2p

[fingerz]

Yeh this is interesting to me.

'Jazz bass' is a term that seems so often these days to refer to the looks of the thing when you sit down and play one and hear it. Really they seem to basses born from the concept of being purposeful, round sounding and simple in their application. I mean, really a jazz bass to me is a passive instrument with 2 single coil pickups and some sort of tone facility. That's it. I love my Fender jazz and to me if you find a good Fender jazz you get on with you really can't beat it. Lakland, and even luthiers such as fbass offer great passive, sc jazz configuration basses that sound great too. Obviously some aesthetic differences. And it's my belief that different body, neck joint and neck dimensions contribute to the variety of sound these basses offer. Most people will wind a Sc pup within the window of what was conceived by Fender in terms of windings and size.

The others such as Sadowsky, Lull, Xotic, Nordy, Celinder offer a more modern, 'zingy' approach to the jazz concept. But it's definately important to use the term 'Super Jazz' with these instruments - and SUPER doesn't always mean BETTER, but it differentiates between the two. The words 'JAzz bass' personally excite me more than 'Super Jazz' ! But sales people love to coin the Jazz term when quite often the bass sounds nothing like one! How queer!?!

[Telebass]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1327149645' post='1506986']
To me, regardless of what anyone else may say, the purest representation of a jazz bass is a fender, because I like the simplicity, and because that was the 'original'. Sure, other companies have made copies, or 'super jazzes' as some people call them, and they may suit some people's needs better than a fender jazz, but I definitely wouldn't call them the new standard for a jazz bass. Afterall, without the Fender Jazz, there may not be any other jazz basses either

Also, I will happily admit to really liking having the word 'fender' on the headstock of my bass Not to show off or because I'm a fender fan-boy, but I just think it looks really cool, haha.

Now I'm not saying that I don't like other companies takes on a jazz, because every Sadowsky and Sandberg I have played sounds incredible, but to me they just aren't quite a true jazz bass.

/my 2p
[/quote]

I'm with you on this. Although I play only Preccisions or similar. And I do now have a bass that DOESN'T have Fender on the headstock - sacrilege!

[Mykesbass]

Trouble is, even different versions of the Fender Jazz differ quite substantially, so you need to narrow down your benchmark, as a modern Standard US Fender is probably quite different in sound (it certainly is in spec) to a 62 re-issue. Therefore, it is quite possible that a high end copy sounds more like an old Jazz than the modern Fender.

[Lozz196]

I`m in the same viewpoint. Any Jazz bass not made by Fender, no matter how good the quality, how much better it is than a Fender, is a copy of Fenders idea, just made different.better/whatever.

[Mornats]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1327150540' post='1507011']
I`m in the same viewpoint. Any Jazz bass not made by Fender, no matter how good the quality, how much better it is than a Fender, is a copy of Fenders idea, just made different.better/whatever.
[/quote]

Just like cars. Ford made the first mass produced car - the Model T. Today, Ford's are still arguably quite good cars in their class but others do them better (and others do them worse). But if you're like me, you'd look at a Ford, accept they're good then buy something more individual, just because that's your personal taste. Which is why I drive a Mitsubishi Lancer and play an Overwater Contemporary J.

Fenders - yep, lovely and a classic and I have uber respect for them. They're just not for me.

As for whether a non-Fender jazz is truly a jazz or not. Hmmm, not a true jazz perhaps but a development of one, just as a sports coupé or executive estate is an extension of the original Model T idea. Evolution baby.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1327150540' post='1507011']
I`m in the same viewpoint. Any Jazz bass not made by Fender, no matter how good the quality, how much better it is than a Fender, is a copy of Fenders idea, just made different.better/whatever.
[/quote]

'Fender' has changed hands multiple times, changed toolings, changed specs, changed staff.... what is the link between the current "FenderTM" and the basses Leo Fender made? apart from the trademark on the headstock? A current fender is just a copy of Leo Fender's idea. And it's an idea that many other luthiers and makers have been able- with different constraints- to pull off as well or better.

Ranging from Steed bass, or the guy in israel, studiously copying every detail of how they made them in the 60's, to handmade basses made by teams of japanese wizards through to pickup makers spending their whole time perfecting 'that' sound in handmade offerings- through small workshops, and all the way up to mass produced CNC cut versions of the bass. Where are the FenderTM in that? who is more faithfully copying that idea?

[EssentialTension]

Jazz basses are not all the same and haven't been for fifty years. 'Jazz bass' is a set of basses with certain family resemblances. The key resemblances are:

1 - The offset body shape
2 - A pair of single coil pickups
3 - 1.5" nut
4 - VVT (or maybe VTVT) controls

For a bass to be a member of the Jazz bass family it needs at least one, and probably two, or possibly three, of those key characteristics but it doesn't need all of them.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1327152174' post='1507039']
Jazz basses are not all the same and haven't been for fifty years. 'Jazz bass' is a set of basses with certain family resemblances. The key resemblances are:

1 - The offset body shape
2 - A pair of single coil pickups
3 - 1.5" nut
4 - VVT (or maybe VTVT) controls

For a bass to be a member of the Jazz bass family it needs at least one, and probably two, or possibly three, of those key characteristics but it doesn't need all of them.
[/quote]
Position of the pickups also quite important.

[Mylkinut]

I tend to think of 'other' Jazz Basses (and Ps for that matter) as interpretations of a central idea, originally created by Leo Fender but now so distilled it's almost just a 'type' of bass, more than just a copied design. I guess I agree with EssentialTension: they share characteristics with each other and that's what makes them Jazz Basses. Each interpretation has its selling point - I guess Fender's is it's 'originality', but others will have active electronics, better build quality etc.

I'd say that Fender's MIM Deluxe Jazz is no more of a 'true' Jazz than, say, a Sandberg J. Neither is made in the same factory as Fender's original design, neither has shares its electronics - you could even say Fender is now nothing more than a nostalgic nameplate for what is (naturally) a radically different company from what Leo came up with. You could go so far as to say any Jazz with a maple neck isn't a 'real' one.

I think the Jazz and Precision designs are so well known and used that companies like Sandberg no longer [i]copy [/i]Fender, but merely use them as a 'traditional' mould onto which they map their own improvements. They're historic shapes. Fender may have come up with them originally but so much time has passed that many simply think that's what a bass should look like, no matter the name on the headstock.

For instance, I'm GASsing like hell over a Sandberg PM4. If I get one I'll have three Precisions: two made by Fender, one made by Sandberg.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1327153386' post='1507071']
Position of the pickups also quite important.
[/quote]
OK, I didn't make that explicit but yes. Although even Fender Jazzes don't all have two single coils in exactly the same positions. However, if I had the offset body, the 1.5" nut, and VVT, even if I had moved the pickup positions I'd still say it was in the family 'Jazz bass'.

[Fat Rich]

I have four Fender Jazz basses, they all sound and feel very different.

For me when you start adding high mass bridges or active pickups or tone controls they become "Super Jazzes". Ditto for other manufacturers improvements on the Jazz like Sadowsky, Sandberg, etc. Great basses but they start to get away from that classic sound.

For me a Fender bass should be nice and agricultural, made out of a couple of cheap planks of wood and some bent tin for that classic sound.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Fat Rich

[Linus27]

Ok, this is all very interesting but it seems that most have commented on the shape and look but not much on the Jazz tone. Is there a defined Jazz tone that Leo Fender originally set out and if yes, do these other brands even emulate it? Has modern Fender Jazzes strayed so far way from the original Jazz tone?

[Linus27]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1327151241' post='1507020']
Just like cars. Ford made the first mass produced car - the Model T. Today, Ford's are still arguably quite good cars in their class but others do them better (and others do them worse). But if you're like me, you'd look at a Ford, accept they're good then buy something more individual, just because that's your personal taste. Which is why I drive a Mitsubishi Lancer and play an Overwater Contemporary J.

Fenders - yep, lovely and a classic and I have uber respect for them. They're just not for me.

As for whether a non-Fender jazz is truly a jazz or not. Hmmm, not a true jazz perhaps but a development of one, just as a sports coupé or executive estate is an extension of the original Model T idea. Evolution baby.
[/quote]

I don't buy this theory as its too broad. Saying Ford produced the first mass produced car would be the same as saying Fender produced the first mass produced bass and not just the Jazz specificly.

[chris_b]

[size=4]This is just my opinion, but as far as 5 string Jazz basses are concerned, Nordstrand and Mike Lull are making far better instruments than Fender have ever built, closely followed by Lakland.[/size]

[bubinga5]

the easy answer is.. if hasnt got these 4 attributes its not a true jazz bass.... imo

1. Jazz shaped body
2. Single coil jazz pickups
3. jazz neck
4. Passive

I love the copies of jazz basses like Sadowsky's, Suhr's, etc.. but there not a true jazz bass... they look like one but there still a copy... nowt wrong with trying to improve on the design but Fender did it first and there no way to bend the image or sound..

you could say, even Fender has blurred what is really a jazz bass, but its still a Fender Jazz bass.. my conclusion is, if i doesnt say Fender Jazz bass on the headstock, its not really a jazz bass.. its a copy and you really have to stop it there imo...


if i had endless cash i wouldnt buy a Fender Jazz... because others just do it better, but it doesnt take away the fact that im buying copy

Edited January 21, 2012 by bubinga5

[Gareth Hughes]

Probably already been said here (haven't read everything yet) but Bill Nash made a fair point, I think, in that once Leo Fender sold Fender then EVERYTHING became a copy of Fender. I might be re-interpreting what he said but the gist of it was that it was Leo who made Fender what it was therefore without him, it's a copy in the same way Sadowsky or Lakland, etc is. For example - If Leo Fender never set foot in any of the Japanese Fender factories, then how can they be said to be a Fender? They are just making copies. Not a bad thing - just a different thing than if Leo was making them.

Who builds the best is up to individual assessment.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1327159549' post='1507210']
[size=4]This is just my opinion, but as far as 5 string Jazz basses are concerned, Nordstrand and Mike Lull are making far better instruments than Fender have ever built, closely followed by Lakland.[/size]
[/quote]i agree Chris, and then you get to guys like John Suhr, who take it to another level... its a bit like adding cream to butter to refine it.. it may taste better but it aint butter... ill get me coat..

[Lozz196]

Easiest way to look at this is Rickenbackers.

Anything shaped remotely like a Rickenbacker is invariably called a Rickenbacker copy (aside from by the company that made it, of course).

[discreet]

If it looks and sounds like a jazz bass, and more importantly if it plays and sounds as [i]you[/i] would like it to, then it's a jazz bass regardless of brand. I'm toying with the idea of a jazz and I'm going to play as many different variants as I can get my hands on. Ultimately I'll go with the one I like the most. Or I may decide I just don't like jazz basses!

[EssentialTension]

Here's a Jazz bass:

[EssentialTension]

... and here's another Jazz bass:

[Linus27]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1327159549' post='1507210']
[size=4]This is just my opinion, but as far as 5 string Jazz basses are concerned, Nordstrand and Mike Lull are making far better instruments than Fender have ever built, closely followed by Lakland.[/size]
[/quote]

Can you explain a little more on this? Why is their copy better than the original? Are you saying that these copies are closer to the original concept than what Fender are making now or are you just saying that you prefer the look and feel of these copies? I am just interested in your use of the word better and don't forget we are talking tonally as well as build quality.

[Linus27]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1327161392' post='1507245']
Probably already been said here (haven't read everything yet) but Bill Nash made a fair point, I think, in that once Leo Fender sold Fender then EVERYTHING became a copy of Fender. I might be re-interpreting what he said but the gist of it was that it was Leo who made Fender what it was therefore without him, it's a copy in the same way Sadowsky or Lakland, etc is. For example - If Leo Fender never set foot in any of the Japanese Fender factories, then how can they be said to be a Fender? They are just making copies. Not a bad thing - just a different thing than if Leo was making them.

Who builds the best is up to individual assessment.
[/quote]

But did everything become of copy when Leo sold it. Surely if the original designs and drawings were used then the original concept has been kept and continued despite who is sitting in the big chair at the top? Did Leo take all the machine tools, drawings etc with him and said right up to the new owners to draw their own designs?