Marvin Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Both guitarists I've played with recently have become near obsessive about having combos or cabs with 12inch speakers in them. Why? What is it about a 12inch speaker that is so appealing? Do they need the surface area to push air? That's a rhetorical question by the way And what is it about 4x12's? I see them routinely used in small pubs. Why do they need so many speakers? The guitarist in my former band had 2x12 combo and was continually moaning he couldn't hear himself despite it deafening the rest of us. I told him time and time again he was stood too close to the damned thing, but would he listen, would he hell. My current guitarist, brilliant bloke, very talented, knows when to turn down the volume, very self critical...but has become convinced he needs a 4x12 stack! Our drummer is also a sound engineer and told me his biggest problem doing sound is...guitar amps, they're too loud. Oh, I just give up. Just wanted to get that rambling off my chest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Ever stand in front of an 8x10 at full pelt? It's the guitar version of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I played in a band with a guitarist who had an old Fender Twin 2x12. Always complained he couldn't hear himself on stage yet I saw people in the middle of the hall physically wincing when he hit a particularly agressive chord - that combo just had such a long 'throw' but little volume right up close. I had a similar thing with a Trace 4x10 once, not much up on stage but deafening at the back of the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1327170460' post='1507427'] What is it about a 12inch speaker that is so appealing? Do they need the surface area to push air? That's a rhetorical question by the way And what is it about 4x12's? I see them routinely used in small pubs. Why do they need so many speakers? [/quote] There aren't really many good guitar speakers that aren't 12 inch. Especially if you judge them by who used them in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1327171065' post='1507437'] I played in a band with a guitarist who had an old Fender Twin 2x12. Always complained he couldn't hear himself on stage yet I saw people in the middle of the hall physically wincing when he hit a particularly agressive chord - that combo just had such a long 'throw' but little volume right up close. I had a similar thing with a Trace 4x10 once, not much up on stage but deafening at the back of the room. [/quote] It is down to the treble being directional. Point speakers at his ears instead of knees and it sorts out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1327171138' post='1507440'] It is down to the treble being directional. Point speakers at his ears instead of knees and it sorts out. [/quote] I found an easier solution - I pointed him at the door & told him never to come back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I must be playing with the wrong guitarists because the four I've regularly played with in recent times are all using combos with two or four 10"s. Anyway, shouldn't this be in General Discussion and not Off Topic? Edited January 21, 2012 by EssentialTension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1327171397' post='1507444'] I must be playing with the wrong guitarists because the four I've regularly played with in recent times are all using combos with two or four 10"s. Anyway, shouldn't this be in General Discussion and not Off Topic? [/quote] Sorry, forgot General Discussion had been reclassified from General Bass Discussion. Currently the guitarist I'm playing with has a 2x10 combo, he's just become fixated with with getting a 4x12 cab. It's probably because his combo is on its last legs and anything else sounds better Edited January 21, 2012 by Marvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E sharp Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Years ago , I gigged on the country circuit , and the guitarist had a Boogie 1x12 combo that had a 50 or 15 watt switch on the back . He never used the 50 watts , only the 15 watts , and it was plenty loud enough , and we were quite loud as a band on that circuit . He used to use any old chair at the venue to prop it up nearer ear level . Maybe this is what your guy needs to do - just prop it up . He'd probably be surprised at how little "wattage" or "SPL" or whatever measurement you want to trapse out , that he actually needs . Just a thought . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I had an old Fender Twin on loan once. Jesus it was loud! And heavy!! Getting back on topic, I don't think I've ever owned a 4x12 - used one at a festival once though. I'm pretty sure I got the amp all the way up to 2... But then again the festival sound crew had done their job properly and put them on stands at the back of the (big) stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 as an guitarist I always had 12" combos, never needed a 4x12" cab. now I play a 33W/7W 1x12" combo usually in the 7W position. I never had the problem of not hearing myself or being too loud. It's about setting the EQ and directing the speaker to your ear and keeping a good distance. most guitarists want 4x12" in the same way bassist like the 8x10". but nobody really needs them unless you play in stadiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I dunno why people keep saying big amps are for stadiums. Stadiums always have a PA. Big amps are for places where you need to be loud and carry your own without PA help. The directional bit of 4x12s kind of kills it but it keeps the guitarist from blasting me when I'm off to the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1327195025' post='1507803'] I dunno why ...[/quote] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If it was Doom, it woul only like that because his real rig is so loud everyone would die, so its off behind the stage facing away. Hence two 100w ENGL heads there. It isn't like those would be quiet. Actually it is black metal, so trve tone comes from 10w SS Peavey with torn speakers, down a well. Hence needing a backdrop. Or you can use this pedal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WcsV7hQ1V4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Haven't clicked the video as I'm on my phone but is that the valnott?? Sounds great on bass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yep, 412s look good, and sound good when cranked, but most of us never play places anywhere near big enough for them to reach their potential. Two guitarists I work with have little 15 watt valve combos - with 12s - and they don`t need these flat out in regular venue sized pubs, but because they are making the amps work, they sound so good. Natural breakup, doing what valves do best. Yum! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gafbass02 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) When I was in Double Cross we were lucky enough to have gear carted about and set up for us and the guitarist used four 4x12's and a mahoosive rack. One of the cabs was different In some way and weighed about twice the rest, but looked the same, I think it was older, if we were moving the kit on our own it was pot luck when you went to the van and grabbed a handle Before we started doing the big places we took all our kit to the local pub (Loaded Dog in Leicester) and did a freebie gig to mates just to rinse the kit out at gig volume. He took all four and I took two bass stacks. Lol. Nuts!! The police apparently arrived but luckily we'd just finished! Was fun for a first gig. :0) This video taken a few weeks later shows us setting up at Birmingham symphony hall and you can see Styx's offstage guitar area and the real cabs miked up behind the wall of fake cabs. http://m.youtube.com/?client=mv-google&dc=organic&rdm=4pcfq6cqi&source=mog#/watch?v=BR8gDjHpN2o Edited January 22, 2012 by gafbass02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_S Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Our lead guitarist uses a straight 412, a 50-50 power amp and a preamp with a [i]volume control[/i]... never have any problems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdreadful Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Maximum volume yields maximum results... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Back in the day Deep Purple and I'm sure many others only plugged in the bottom cabs in their stacks. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Too many guitarists (and bass players) think that more is more. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Funny how many musicians never use their ears.[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1327233394' post='1508012'] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Back in the day Deep Purple and I'm sure many others only plugged in the bottom cabs in their stacks ...[/font][/color][/size] [/quote] They might have been better off only plugging in the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1327233394' post='1508012'] [size=4][font=Arial]Funny how many musicians never use their ears.[/font][/size] [/quote] Holy crap, you can say that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 My apologies for thinking this was a spoof thread after the guitarists ego thread. Volume with guitar amps, and cab size, is an interesting topic. Many are starting to use modellers these days, but because they don't really have the same tonal properties as a valve based amp, they do require 100+ watts and at least a 2X12 to hold their own against a typical 15W valve amp and a decent speaker. Then the problem is that you may get drowned in the indistinct fizz and mush that the amp puts out. As for setting up patches using headphones in the bedroom, that is simply a waste of time unless the only place you'll play guitar is in your bedroom through headphones. Tones have to be set up in a band and room context because everything is interactive and you need to know what will cut through and what will disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 2x12's only in our band (one of my enforced rules) unless 4x12's are required or are provided in the venue. I prefer minimum stage volume and max FOH feed. Hate the bloody things TBH. Nothing sounds worse than a Marshall Mode 4 hissing and screaming through 4 V 30's. (actually a Marshall MG sounds worse but thats another kettle of kippers). Greenbacks all the way peeps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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